Something we can agree on?

[St.PeteJim]

In my home county of Pinellas, there is a program here for higher education. Starting in the fourth grade, all students on the discount lunch program are eligible (program for low income families). If the student goes from fourth grade in this program, and graduates high school with at least a C average, and never gets arrested for anything, then they get four years worth of tuition paid for from any public college in Florida or technical school. What do you think?

[Blue Blood]

Free ride for abiding by rules we're supposed to follow anyway?(Plua a C average??)Setting low standards for people won't help them. Why work harder when the minimum will get you by?
No thanks.

[Tokyohoon]

At the same time, people from low income families are responsible for most of the crime - having a positive incentive to augment the negative incentive of jail might be effective in both lowering the crime rate and helping these people get themselves out of poverty.

The main reason that people from low income backgrounds commit more crimes is that they see themselves with little or nothing to lose. This gives them something to lose.

Hell, I'd go further and extend it across the board. But I've always been a supporter of socialized education anyhow, as it provides a better educated and more profitable workforce and is thus good for society in the long term.

[winecityskin]

In my home county of Pinellas, there is a program here for higher education. Starting in the fourth grade, all students on the discount lunch program are eligible (program for low income families). If the student goes from fourth grade in this program, and graduates high school with at least a C average, and never gets arrested for anything, then they get four years worth of tuition paid for from any public college in Florida or technical school. What do you think?

Totally support it... And Hoon wrote some very good points to support this program...

[terrormachine]

In my home county of Pinellas, there is a program here for higher education. Starting in the fourth grade, all students on the discount lunch program are eligible (program for low income families). If the student goes from fourth grade in this program, and graduates high school with at least a C average, and never gets arrested for anything, then they get four years worth of tuition paid for from any public college in Florida or technical school. What do you think?

Did college make you a socialist? If someone keeps their nose clean and works hard at school, there are countless thousands of scholarships, grants and loansone can apply for and receive to help with a college education. I'm paying off my student loans, why should anyone get a free ride on the taxpayers dime?

The issue with low income households(and be honest here, we're talking about mainly blacks here) is that the culture frowns upon those who do well in school. Think about the black kids you knew who did well in school, the majority of the other blacks thought they were weak, sissies or too white. At least that's how it was in my public high school that was 60% black.

[IronCityBoot]

The good thing of it is that there will only be a few kids eligible for the benefits when the end of high school rolls around. Other than that, why should my kids suffer just because I tried to do what was right and give them a good life by working two jobs etc? Why should they be burdened with college loans later in life? Maybe if i were a fuck up, they could have a better life in the wonderful eyes of our government.

[OiMommy!]

Did college make you a socialist? If someone keeps their nose clean and works hard at school, there are countless thousands of scholarships, grants and loansone can apply for and receive to help with a college education. I'm paying off my student loans, why should anyone get a free ride on the taxpayers dime?

The issue with low income households(and be honest here, we're talking about mainly blacks here) is that the culture frowns upon those who do well in school. Think about the black kids you knew who did well in school, the majority of the other blacks thought they were weak, sissies or too white. At least that's how it was in my public high school that was 60% black.
PERFECT EXAMPLE for you(and everybody).......Where I live there is a "traditionally" black high school (and its still black..less than 2% is white or "other" even the Teachers/Staff/Admin is nearly 100% black) the school is terrible...HUGE drop out rate,lowest test scores in the state etc etc..been that way for years.....theyve gotten assloads of Government money.....Any and every kind of special program you can think of AND lowered the standards.......has it made any difference?? NO..........Why? because of the black community themselves.....here they have a black school staffed with blacks and even with all this money/lowered standards etc the kids drop out or fail out.
The State wants to shut down the school entirely and move the kids to surrounding schools but the "community" keeps opposing it......funny they are up in arms about the school being shut down (its apparently 'racist') yet why arent these same "concerned citizens" out the rest of the year upset that THEIR kids are failing or dropping out????:confused:

The black community is keeping itself back-period.
Theres no conspriacy,no racism,its not because of "whitey".........Watch 5 minutes of BET and see what is glorified........

[Gut Check]

The issue with low income households(and be honest here, we're talking about mainly blacks here)
Actually the largest percentage of people below the poverty line, are single white mothers, so no you aren't. Did that ISD thread get you all racially fired up?:biggrin:

[Jax_mtl]

In my home county of Pinellas, there is a program here for higher education. Starting in the fourth grade, all students on the discount lunch program are eligible (program for low income families). If the student goes from fourth grade in this program, and graduates high school with at least a C average, and never gets arrested for anything, then they get four years worth of tuition paid for from any public college in Florida or technical school. What do you think?

While I agree with Hoon, being a fan of socialized education, I guess it's better than nothing. It does give incentive, to study and stay out of trouble, to those who may have felt it hopeless otherwise.

[Gut Check]

In my home county of Pinellas, there is a program here for higher education. Starting in the fourth grade, all students on the discount lunch program are eligible (program for low income families). If the student goes from fourth grade in this program, and graduates high school with at least a C average, and never gets arrested for anything, then they get four years worth of tuition paid for from any public college in Florida or technical school. What do you think?
Is that a Pinellas County School Board program? They shouldn't have cut Bright Futures scholarships, anyone who get's a B average GPA in High School, get's 75% of their in state tuition paid for. Then if you had an A average, you got more, but I'm not sure what it was.

And since you mentioned lunch, that was a slick move by Pinellas County making lunch in High School, the last period of the day, and optional. Got to be saving some tax dollars there.

[terrormachine]

Actually the largest percentage of people below the poverty line, are single white mothers, so no you aren't. Did that ISD thread get you all racially fired up?:biggrin:

I was speaking of my own experiences in the school I graduated from. What things are like in Florida I couldn't know. And of course since Whites are the majority population (for now), then it only makes since their numbers in poverty would be higher. However, listen to Bill Cosby and others talk about the black community and you'll understand where I'm coming from. If a black kid from the ghetto applies himself in school and makes good grades and avoids trouble, there are scholarship programs at major universities and from groups such as the NAACP that he can receive to offset school costs......not to mention Pell Grants, which do not have to be paid back and are 100% taxpayer supported. So I guess we are already participating in this program at the Federal level.

And as far as ISD......never forget, never forgive.

[winecityskin]

I was speaking of my own experiences in the school I graduated from. What things are like in Florida I couldn't know. And of course since Whites are the majority population (for now), then it only makes since their numbers in poverty would be higher. However, listen to Bill Cosby and others talk about the black community and you'll understand where I'm coming from. If a black kid from the ghetto applies himself in school and makes good grades and avoids trouble, there are scholarship programs at major universities and from groups such as the NAACP that he can receive to offset school costs......not to mention Pell Grants, which do not have to be paid back and are 100% taxpayer supported. So I guess we are already participating in this program at the Federal level.

And as far as ISD......never forget, never forgive.

Forgive who? His teacher at the driving school?:biggrin:

[St.PeteJim]

I left one important fact out, about this program - just to get a starting opinion from everyone. Not one penny of tax payer's money is spent on it, because it is fully funded by local business. For example, the evil corporation I work for has been involved in this program for the last ten years, and has paid for around 500 college scholarships - that's an average of 50 kids a year. How it works is each business sponsors a school. Not only do they take the bill for tuition, but they also pay their employees to spend one a hour a week mentoring a student.

I think its a great program - a great alternative to socialized education (which I am largely against). The low income families benefit from it, as well as the businesses because they will have a larger qualified employee pool to pull from.

[pxscooterskin]

Forgive who? His teacher at the driving school?:biggrin:

I didn't think he was driving. But what the fuck. Let's keep this on subject. TM didn't bring ISD into this...

[terrormachine]

I left one important fact out, about this program - just to get a starting opinion from everyone. Not one penny of tax payer's money is spent on it, because it is fully funded by local business. For example, the evil corporation I work for has been involved in this program for the last ten years, and has paid for around 500 college scholarships - that's an average of 50 kids a year. How it works is each business sponsors a school. Not only do they take the bill for tuition, but they also pay their employees to spend one a hour a week mentoring a student.

I think its a great program - a great alternative to socialized education (which I am largely against). The low income families benefit from it, as well as the businesses because they will have a larger qualified employee pool to pull from.

Now that you mention that, it totally changes the dynamics of the program. Private businesses supporting these programs are fine and it certainly helps their PR. I'm sure there is a tax incentive involved, but at least it's for a good cause.

[Gut Check]

The low income families benefit from it, as well as the businesses because they will have a larger qualified employee pool to pull from.
No, if business benefit's it's bad, you capitalist pig dog.

[St.PeteJim]

No, if business benefit's it's bad, you capitalist pig dog.

The machine of capitalism is oiled with the blood of the worker.

[BleedForYourCause]

Did college make you a socialist? If someone keeps their nose clean and works hard at school, there are countless thousands of scholarships, grants and loansone can apply for and receive to help with a college education. I'm paying off my student loans, why should anyone get a free ride on the taxpayers dime?

The issue with low income households(and be honest here, we're talking about mainly blacks here) is that the culture frowns upon those who do well in school. Think about the black kids you knew who did well in school, the majority of the other blacks thought they were weak, sissies or too white. At least that's how it was in my public high school that was 60% black.


Agreed. I joined the military to help me get through collage, in addition to student loans and, of course, working hard (I always had a job through collage). Guess what? I appriciate my education all the more for it. To quote Thomas Paine: "What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly..."

[BleedForYourCause]

PERFECT EXAMPLE for you(and everybody).......Where I live there is a "traditionally" black high school (and its still black..less than 2% is white or "other" even the Teachers/Staff/Admin is nearly 100% black) the school is terrible...HUGE drop out rate,lowest test scores in the state etc etc..been that way for years.....theyve gotten assloads of Government money.....Any and every kind of special program you can think of AND lowered the standards.......has it made any difference?? NO..........Why? because of the black community themselves.....here they have a black school staffed with blacks and even with all this money/lowered standards etc the kids drop out or fail out.
The State wants to shut down the school entirely and move the kids to surrounding schools but the "community" keeps opposing it......funny they are up in arms about the school being shut down (its apparently 'racist') yet why arent these same "concerned citizens" out the rest of the year upset that THEIR kids are failing or dropping out????:confused:

The black community is keeping itself back-period.
Theres no conspriacy,no racism,its not because of "whitey".........Watch 5 minutes of BET and see what is glorified........


Agreed.

[BleedForYourCause]

I left one important fact out, about this program - just to get a starting opinion from everyone. Not one penny of tax payer's money is spent on it, because it is fully funded by local business. For example, the evil corporation I work for has been involved in this program for the last ten years, and has paid for around 500 college scholarships - that's an average of 50 kids a year. How it works is each business sponsors a school. Not only do they take the bill for tuition, but they also pay their employees to spend one a hour a week mentoring a student.

I think its a great program - a great alternative to socialized education (which I am largely against). The low income families benefit from it, as well as the businesses because they will have a larger qualified employee pool to pull from.


Ok, well that changes things a little...but the problem with handing out education is that once everyone has it, its no longer valuable. In our grandfather's generation, one could do well with a high school diploma, because they were relativly rare. In our father's generation, you could do well with a BA, because they were relativly rare. Now, you almost need a masters to do well, because college educated people are a dime a dozen.
What's so wrong with working for what you get? If you are determined enough, you can make it through...but let's not just hand it out. It cheapens the whole process.

[ienjoybeer]

Is that a Pinellas County School Board program? They shouldn't have cut Bright Futures scholarships, anyone who get's a B average GPA in High School, get's 75% of their in state tuition paid for. Then if you had an A average, you got more, but I'm not sure what it was.

And since you mentioned lunch, that was a slick move by Pinellas County making lunch in High School, the last period of the day, and optional. Got to be saving some tax dollars there.


Bright futures kicks ass. 100% scholarship to any Florida school.... They cut that program out???

[siobahn]

The main reason that people from low income backgrounds commit more crimes is that they see themselves with little or nothing to lose.i don't know where you get this idea... poor people lose far more by going to jail. i.e. their apartment/house, their job (or welfare), custody of their kids, etc. they are also far more likely to spend time in jail when charged with a crime, and more likely to be sentenced to a significant prison term. and they are aware of this... yes they commit the most crimes.. but this is due to many factors, and in my opinion cannot be explained by such a statement. i mean, if you had some statistics... :wink:
Hell, I'd go further and extend it across the board. But I've always been a supporter of socialized education anyhow, as it provides a better educated and more profitable workforce and is thus good for society in the long term.how are you defining this term? well, what generally happens when higher education is much easier to obtain is that the number of skilled workers drops dramatically. this is the situation in many former eastern bloc countries, where education has been free for some time... everyone wants to be a doctor or lawyer, but no one wants to be a plumber, bricklayer, etc. there is also an increase in people getting degrees for useless things (i.e. philosophy, psychology) in which they are unable to find a job, thus becoming a burden on the system.

and a C average..i don't even understand how universities are able to accept people with such low grades.

[weknowhowtolive]

Holy crap....a C average...setting high standards or what!! I didnt go to high school so i dont know but can you even graduate with less than a C average? How about a GPA of 3.5 or higher. That might make a little more sense.

[LeftWingScum]

I think its a great program - a great alternative to socialized education (which I am largely against). The low income families benefit from it, as well as the businesses because they will have a larger qualified employee pool to pull from.

and that it'll be a massive tax break for the businesses. be honest, that's the main reason you support it.

[Olde-E Fever]

Watch 5 minutes of BET and see what is glorified........


Jazz and gospel music on sundays?

[Tokyohoon]

Re: socialized education

how are you defining this term? well, what generally happens when higher education is much easier to obtain is that the number of skilled workers drops dramatically. this is the situation in many former eastern bloc countries, where education has been free for some time... everyone wants to be a doctor or lawyer, but no one wants to be a plumber, bricklayer, etc. there is also an increase in people getting degrees for useless things (i.e. philosophy, psychology) in which they are unable to find a job, thus becoming a burden on the system.

and a C average..i don't even understand how universities are able to accept people with such low grades.

I usually use the term to refer to subsidized education like we have in Canada. Anyone who has the grades to get into school can get student loans and make it through university under their own steam.

I've never been an advocate of free education - you have to have the grades to get into university, and you have to work to stay there.

[LeftWingScum]

seriously hoon, you're too up on this issue to use the term "free" education.

[Jimmy]

PERFECT EXAMPLE for you(and everybody).......Where I live there is a "traditionally" black high school (and its still black..less than 2% is white or "other" even the Teachers/Staff/Admin is nearly 100% black) the school is terrible...HUGE drop out rate,lowest test scores in the state etc etc..been that way for years.....theyve gotten assloads of Government money.....Any and every kind of special program you can think of AND lowered the standards.......has it made any difference?? NO..........Why? because of the black community themselves.....here they have a black school staffed with blacks and even with all this money/lowered standards etc the kids drop out or fail out.
The State wants to shut down the school entirely and move the kids to surrounding schools but the "community" keeps opposing it......funny they are up in arms about the school being shut down (its apparently 'racist') yet why arent these same "concerned citizens" out the rest of the year upset that THEIR kids are failing or dropping out????:confused:

The black community is keeping itself back-period.
Theres no conspriacy,no racism,its not because of "whitey".........Watch 5 minutes of BET and see what is glorified........


So what exactly is your argument? That blacks aren't as smart as whites? If the school had a white administration it would do better?

Definitely not agreed.

[Jimmy]

Did college make you a socialist? If someone keeps their nose clean and works hard at school, there are countless thousands of scholarships, grants and loansone can apply for and receive to help with a college education. I'm paying off my student loans, why should anyone get a free ride on the taxpayers dime?

The issue with low income households(and be honest here, we're talking about mainly blacks here) is that the culture frowns upon those who do well in school. Think about the black kids you knew who did well in school, the majority of the other blacks thought they were weak, sissies or too white. At least that's how it was in my public high school that was 60% black.

Don't be bitter that you have to pay off your own loans.

I think that this plan is definitely beneficial for everyone involved. I would support it even if it came out of tax payer's money. The "C" average is kind of weak, but the part about not getting into trouble could have lots of benefits for the community.

About the middle/high school culture frowning upon students who do well... that shit applies to just about any school, not just black or even low income.

[BleedForYourCause]

So what exactly is your argument? That blacks aren't as smart as whites? If the school had a white administration it would do better?

Definitely not agreed.


No, it's that in common black culture, its generally not acceptable to be smart, accomplished, hard working, wealthy (unless its through drug sales/crime or rapping), and educated. If you happen to be black and fit one or more of these, you are branded a sellout, "Oreo", Uncle Tom, ect. In other words, they do more to keep themselves down more than any white people ever could.

[siobahn]

i agree completely with the post above (beat me to it :tongue: ).
About the middle/high school culture frowning upon students who do well... that shit applies to just about any school, not just black or even low income.i think the reference here was also to the community in general, not just the school community. of course, the things glorified in the neighbourhood extend to school... but do you honestly think it's the same in schools in upper income neighbourhoods? as a kid, i briefly went to school with middle class and rich kids.. and what i observed was exactly the opposite. academic performance was something to be proud of.. and actually it seemed that the higher the income bracket, the more acceptable it was to brag about good grades. i've seen the same in university. rich kids take every opportunity to flaunt their high marks, while poor kids seem to be ashamed when they do well.

[Jimmy]

No, it's that in common black culture, its generally not acceptable to be smart, accomplished, hard working, wealthy (unless its through drug sales/crime or rapping), and educated. If you happen to be black and fit one or more of these, you are branded a sellout, "Oreo", Uncle Tom, ect. In other words, they do more to keep themselves down more than any white people ever could.


By black do you only mean black American? I really doubt this is the case with Africans, or even African immigrants to the United States.

In any case, I think the same could be said of ANY race of people who live in poverty. Are you telling me that white trailor park kids value education more than poor blacks? Again, I hardly think that's the case. I believe that it has more to do with their economic situation than their race.

[Jimmy]

i agree completely with the post above (beat me to it :tongue: ).
i think the reference here was also to the community in general, not just the school community. of course, the things glorified in the neighbourhood extend to school... but do you honestly think it's the same in schools in upper income neighbourhoods? as a kid, i briefly went to school with middle class and rich kids.. and what i observed was exactly the opposite. academic performance was something to be proud of.. and actually it seemed that the higher the income bracket, the more acceptable it was to brag about good grades. i've seen the same in university. rich kids take every opportunity to flaunt their high marks, while poor kids seem to be ashamed when they do well.


I agree with you here. I do think that people who are in a better economic situation value education more than poor people do, but middle class communities have the same "nerd" stereotyping.

[OiMommy!]

I agree with you here. I do think that people who are in a better economic situation value education more than poor people do, but middle class communities have the same "nerd" stereotyping.
Youre so fucking awesome-Thanks for the neg rep!!! Sorry you cant handle a REAL situation that goes against your opinion.......:biggrin:

[Professor]

By black do you only mean black American? I really doubt this is the case with Africans, or even African immigrants to the United States.

In any case, I think the same could be said of ANY race of people who live in poverty. Are you telling me that white trailor park kids value education more than poor blacks? Again, I hardly think that's the case. I believe that it has more to do with their economic situation than their race.

black Americans, i'm assuming. africans and african immigrants take full advantage of what's offered and are some pretty damn hard workers. i work at a very, very culturally diverse college and you can actually tell which blacks are American, and which are not. the ones in the library and carrying the books are not. they are from jamaica, africa, trinidad, wherever is a predominantly black populace, and not the greatest of living conditions. they are here to make a better life for themselves. the ones with no books, fucking around, causing a commotion, drawing unnecessary attention to themselves and blocking up the hallways are American. it's a sad reality, and i am not generalizing. there are, however rare exceptions to this.

as for your second point, it is a completely valid one.

[Diana E]

By black do you only mean black American? I really doubt this is the case with Africans, or even African immigrants to the United States.

In any case, I think the same could be said of ANY race of people who live in poverty. Are you telling me that white trailor park kids value education more than poor blacks? Again, I hardly think that's the case. I believe that it has more to do with their economic situation than their race.

It has nothing to do with the color of someone's skin. It's simply a type of lifestyle that is glorified.

Look around. Is white trash glorified on tv? No, it's ceaselessy made fun of and ridiculed. I think the point is that black "trash" culture is not. It's glorified, something to look up to, something to emulate, when there is almost NOTHING worthy of emulation. Which in turn keeps the perpetual wheels of poverty turning.

When a certain aspect of society continually berates and pulls guilt trips on those members that have actually acheived something, what kind of message does it send? Yet, on this board, I have been considered a racist for this view. If it saddened me so much, how could I be a racist? Once again, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with one's skin color. It is a simply a cultural/economic issue.

edit: and the second part of your statement is absolutely true except I would add cultural situation as well.

[siobahn]

In any case, I think the same could be said of ANY race of people who live in poverty. Are you telling me that white trailor park kids value education more than poor blacks? Again, I hardly think that's the case. I believe that it has more to do with their economic situation than their race.you're ignoring the popular culture.. the things that are glorified. crime and gang life is more attractive than sitting on the couch, drinking beer and playing video games. it's harder to escape.

as for blacks vs. whites, over 30% of the black population lives below the poverty line, while this can be said for only about 12% of whites. i might be a bit off with stats (don't have time to look it up), but that's the ballpark. now there could be many reasons for this, which may or may not lead one to a racist conclusion. but that's not the debate so far. bottom line, blacks are more likely to be poor. in addition to what has been said about culture, it shouldn't be a surprise that because of these facts, certain stigmas/behaviours are more applicable to blacks than other races.

I agree with you here. I do think that people who are in a better economic situation value education more than poor people do, but middle class communities have the same "nerd" stereotyping.i spent 3 years in a school that was over 85% black. i was very young and smart, the typical brown-noser.. the teacher would even leave me in charge of the class when he had to step out for a minute. that ended when 3 boys (i'm a female) kicked the shit out of me, broke my nose and caused contusions to my belly and arms. i had to be out of school for 4 days - a bit more than stereotyping, don'tcha think? i wasn't the only one who got this kind of treatment.

anyway, it seems that the stigma (of being a "nerd") is generally greater. i've seen it many times among blacks.. the kid who does well just is not left alone... is considered not "black" enough or whatnot. but these things are not easy to quantify.

[BleedForYourCause]

By black do you only mean black American? I really doubt this is the case with Africans, or even African immigrants to the United States.


What the hell do you think?

[BleedForYourCause]

In any case, I think the same could be said of ANY race of people who live in poverty. Are you telling me that white trailor park kids value education more than poor blacks? Again, I hardly think that's the case. I believe that it has more to do with their economic situation than their race.

That may be so, but you tell me, what is considered more "White": A educated, sucessful business man or poor white trash? And by the same token, what is considered more "Black": A hardworking middle class black family or a gangbanger who tries to embody the lifestyles glorified in most popular rap music? I serve with alot of black guys. In my squad we have two black guys who are a perfect example. Both are 38 years old. One was raised in the ghetto, but worked his way out and now does fairly well for himself and his family in his civillian life. The other has been a drug dealer/addict and a gangbanger type. The latter claims that the former is not black. Very telling, if you ask me.

[Jax_mtl]

This thread is starting to scream of the whole "I'm not racist, but... "

[weknowhowtolive]

This thread is starting to scream of the whole "I'm not racist, but... "...yes....continue...

[Tokyohoon]

Siobhan, I grew up in the Canadian equivalent of a poor white trash town, and it's no different there. It's not just a black thing, it's a stupid mentality that seems to be common to working class and welfare class people in any industrialised country I've spent any time in - courage and strength are things to be proud of, being "book smart" is something to be ridiculed at best.

I've honestly never been able to understand why the hell anyone could think it's "uncool" to havea d ecent head on yer shoulders and know how to use it, but there you go.

[St.PeteJim]

So, has everyone giving this program their approval, besides Craig?

[PUNISHER]

I like the idea, it's way better than giving money to someone because of the colour of their skin.

[terrormachine]

Don't be bitter that you have to pay off your own loans.



Where did I state I was bitter about paying off my student loans? Be thankful that I'm not like quite a few Americans who default on those loans. I'm thankful the program is there and I wish people would take advantage of the Stafford loans......but they must repay 'em, that's only fair.

[Jax_mtl]

...yes....continue...

Insert it before a few people's posts...

[Jax_mtl]

Siobhan, I grew up in the Canadian equivalent of a poor white trash town, and it's no different there. It's not just a black thing, it's a stupid mentality that seems to be common to working class and welfare class people in any industrialised country I've spent any time in - courage and strength are things to be proud of, being "book smart" is something to be ridiculed at best.

I've honestly never been able to understand why the hell anyone could think it's "uncool" to havea d ecent head on yer shoulders and know how to use it, but there you go.

I still live in a white trash area, which as of late has recently become an area for new immigrants to settle... The white trash are by far dropping out faster and having kids underage more than the new arrivals. The immigrants in this neighbourhood have a much greater appreciation for the opportunities given to them. It's sort of like the trash don't think they can do any better, or don't think they deserve it.

[Hostilesouthern]

What a glowing endorsement of mass education this thread is.


Yup, still sending my child to a private or charter school. There is a program I am looking into.....a mix of homeschooling, private tutoring and visits to public schools to use the PE center or interaction with the other kids for social reasons. I'm liking this one the most.

[weknowhowtolive]

What a glowing endorsement of mass education this thread is.


Yup, still sending my child to a private or charter school. There is a program I am looking into.....a mix of homeschooling, private tutoring and visits to public schools to use the PE center or interaction with the other kids for social reasons. I'm liking this one the most.Visiting public schools for PE centers? Hmm...id think sports or something could do that and social interaction..

[siobahn]

Siobhan, I grew up in the Canadian equivalent of a poor white trash town, and it's no different there. It's not just a black thing, it's a stupid mentality that seems to be common to working class and welfare class people in any industrialised country I've spent any time in - courage and strength are things to be proud of, being "book smart" is something to be ridiculed at best.i know, the degree is what i was arguing.

by that personal example, what i meant to convey was that from what i have seen and heard, it is much more acceptable to use violence (and violence to a greater degree) in schools where most students are black. and i think this goes back to culture too. but like i said, these things are hard to quantify.

i'll try to dig up some statistics (yes, those damn things again) when i have the time.

I still live in a white trash area, which as of late has recently become an area for new immigrants to settle... The white trash are by far dropping out faster and having kids underage more than the new arrivals. The immigrants in this neighbourhood have a much greater appreciation for the opportunities given to them. It's sort of like the trash don't think they can do any better, or don't think they deserve it.yeah, such behaviour can be observed in communities of many different backgrounds. this is the extent to which economics are a major influence.

the element that isn't paralleled, however, is the massive community acceptance (on a large and small scale) of crime and deviance as a way of life. what makes it even worse is that when other sources try to reach in and change things in the community, more often than not it's treated with defensiveness and derided as "racism". the overwhelming view is "we can make it ourselves", yet criticism is not accepted. in canada, a similarity can be seen in native/indian communities. outside influences are alternately demanded or condemned, depending on how it suits the community leaders.

[Jax_mtl]

i know, the degree is what i was arguing.

by that personal example, what i meant to convey was that from what i have seen and heard, it is much more acceptable to use violence (and violence to a greater degree) in schools where most students are black. and i think this goes back to culture too. but like i said, these things are hard to quantify.

i'll try to dig up some statistics (yes, those damn things again) when i have the time.

yeah, such behaviour can be observed in communities of many different backgrounds. this is the extent to which economics are a major influence.

the element that isn't paralleled, however, is the massive community acceptance (on a large and small scale) of crime and deviance as a way of life. what makes it even worse is that when other sources try to reach in and change things in the community, more often than not it's treated with defensiveness and derided as "racism". the overwhelming view is "we can make it ourselves", yet criticism is not accepted. in canada, a similarity can be seen in native/indian communities. outside influences are alternately demanded or condemned, depending on how it suits the community leaders.

I would say the attitude on acceptibitility of violence for example has more to do with economic status than race. The neighbourhood I live in, while it is seeing a wave of new migrants, is still over 90% white, and a few years ago would have been at least 95% white. It is the neighbourhood in Montreal with the highest rate of dropouts (about 40%!) and one of the highest crime rates in the country... and no one around here seems to see any of this as a problem. Even my folks who grew up in this neighbourhood, sent me to school in a 'nicer' (with more black kids) area. No question that lots of 'black' areas have these same problems, but they are very poor areas too. I'm sticking with socio-economic status as being a larger indicator than race.

[LeftWingScum]

This thread is starting to scream of the whole "I'm not racist, but... "

i'm not racist, but when is the wsn bbq/kkk rally?