The IRA

[King of all Buffets]

It always seemed like north american kids thought it was a cool thing to support the IRA....very badass and irish. Now that we have seen first hand what terrorists can do to a people, does anybody still support them?...or have people wised up?

[eddie shots]

the mainstream ira is no longer involved in terrorism. they are more involved in parlimentary politics. there will always be extremists, just as there are in any political party. i do not support terrorism, but i am an avid supporter for the liberation of ireland.

[bacon_lettuce_tomato]

I dont have an IRA, my company offers a 401k.

[Martina]

Funny, you should talk about Ireland Shaun, since it was the country I was born in.

My family had to flee Ireland because the British Army wanted to pick my father up and intern him. Now I don't know about you, but being held for an undetermined about of time without about being charged with anything sounds like a terrorist tatic to me.
For the record, my father was never a member of the IRA but since he was on the Irish National Pistol Assocation and a member of the Judo club they assumed he must have been.

I can vividly remember walking down the Falls Road, minding my own businness when a British solgier turned around, raised his assault riffle and aimed it at my head for what felt like an enterity. Isn't intimatation by the use of force related to terrorism?

The biggest difference between the IRA and other terrorist groups is that, although some people may agree with their tatics alot of people agree with their cause.

[weknowhowtolive]

Damn Martina....you were by yourself and the dude pointed his gun at a little girl?

Anyway, as someone said, i am all for the liberation of Ireland. Im not Irish, so its not a "plastic paddy" thing. Sometimes its hard to deferintiate between terrorism and guerilla warfare.

[Martina]

Damn Martina....you were by yourself and the dude pointed his gun at a little girl?

Anyway, as someone said, i am all for the liberation of Ireland. Im not Irish, so its not a "plastic paddy" thing. Sometimes its hard to deferintiate between terrorism and guerilla warfare.

I wasn't quite little when it happened. I was 16 and over visiting family.
It's actually not that uncommon of an occurence.

[King of all Buffets]

Funny, you should talk about Ireland Shaun, since it was the country I was born in.

My family had to flee Ireland because the British Army wanted to pick my father up and intern him. Now I don't know about you, but being held for an undetermined about of time without about being charged with anything sounds like a terrorist tatic to me.
For the record, my father was never a member of the IRA but since he was on the Irish National Pistol Assocation and a member of the Judo club they assumed he must have been.

I can vividly remember walking down the Falls Road, minding my own businness when a British solgier turned around, raised his assault riffle and aimed it at my head for what felt like an enterity. Isn't intimatation by the use of force related to terrorism?

The biggest difference between the IRA and other terrorist groups is that, although some people may agree with their tatics alot of people agree with thier cause.

People support these terrorist groups.....Hezbollah has tones of support from the civillian population, so do Hamas and AL-queda. They beleive that they are freedom fighters, rallying against an opressive force, weather it be Britain, Israel or the USA.

I was never trying to make any statement about the validity of the british occupation, I was rather trying to see if peoples "plastic paddy" attitudes have changed since we've seen terrorism first hand.

...anyways I am not trying to argue, just asking a question.

[Scotskin]

I'm also all for the liberation of Ireland...and I am in no way shape or form Irish...I'm 50/50 Scottish/German descent. But I believe the British need to worry about jolly ol' England and stay the fuck outta Ireland, and while they're at it, they can just make Scotland it's own soverign nation...I'm sick of seeing Dundee and Aberdeen listed as "UK" on bands tour pages. I'm most definently a supporter of the SNP (Scottish Nationalist Party) which advocates having Scotland back under the full and complete control of the Scottish, and having the british where they belong- back in Britain.

The IRA....the "Undefeated Army" would have had my support had they not bumbed busses filled with school children and use filthy tactics "for the cause".

Just my two cents.

[Mike]

I'm also all for the liberation of Ireland...and I am in no way shape or form Irish...I'm 50/50 Scottish/German descent. But I believe the British need to worry about jolly ol' England and stay the fuck outta Ireland, and while they're at it, they can just make Scotland it's own soverign nation...I'm sick of seeing Dundee and Aberdeen listed as "UK" on bands tour pages. I'm most definently a supporter of the SNP (Scottish Nationalist Party) which advocates having Scotland back under the full and complete control of the Scottish, and having the british where they belong- back in Britain.

The IRA....the "Undefeated Army" would have had my support had they not bumbed busses filled with school children and use filthy tactics "for the cause".

Just my two cents.

If you're gonna go there then you have to also look into UDF and Ulster Loyalist terrorist actions, they have committed many, many atrocities in their checkered past where women and kids were involved. It is not a cut and dried situation by any means. There have been oppression and violence on both sides for many, many decades if not hundreds of years.

[Scotskin]

If you're gonna go there then you have to also look into UDF and Ulster Loyalist terrorist actions, they have committed many, many atrocities in their checkered past where women and kids were involved. It is not a cut and dried situation by any means. There have been oppression and violence on both sides for many, many decades if not hundreds of years.
[/left]

Agreed...I'm not saying anyone is fully in the right or wrong here...it's more convoluted than that. But I think it'd be better for everyone fi the Brits packed up and left. I do not support the IRA, the Provo's, ULF or any organizations like that. Merely getting Britain outta where she doesn't belong. Not that I have anything against Britain either...whenever the US has some ass-stomping to do they're always right along with us.

[sidcup kev]

I think the right people to answer this one are the people that have to live there ..............both have paramilitary organisations both have commited attrocities and both have stories to tell no matter which side of the coin you come from .................Its all well and good living in another country and giving yer two cents worth but it just adds fuel to the fire .........

And for the record Ive lived in both countrys and have a protestant English old man and a catholic Irish Mum ..........

[london callum]

I don't support them or their cause. I know we killed civilians and am not sure who killed civilians first but bombing buses full of civilians makes me hate them. If they hit legitimate military and political targets I would still hate them but not as much.

Scotskin - I am quite intrested as to why you, in America, care if Aberdeen and Dundee are labeled as part of the UK. Afterall they are a part of the UK. Why don't you get angry that gigs in England are labeled as being in the UK and not in England? It is the same thing afterall. As for Scotland should be it's own nation. Scotland has it's own parliament through which it can make it's own laws and own decisions. On top of that the current Prime Minister, Tony Blair, was born and lived in Scotland for part of his childhood. However Tony Blair is soon resigning and the man likely to take over from him, Gordon Brown, is also Scottish.

[Scotskin]

Well...that's very nice and all...but I just feel that Scotland and Great Britain should be almost totally seperate countries, like Great Britain and Ireland are...this is just my personal feeling. My friend Julie, who was born in Scotland, is always giving me hell about this view, syaing she's proud of the Union Jack and proud of being "British" as well as Scottish...but we've agreed not to discuss it any further, seeing as how it causes alot of sore points between us.

[suede70]

Well...that's very nice and all...but I just feel that Scotland and Great Britain should be almost totally seperate countries, like Great Britain and Ireland are...this is just my personal feeling. My friend Julie, who was born in Scotland, is always giving me hell about this view, syaing she's proud of the Union Jack and proud of being "British" as well as Scottish...but we've agreed not to discuss it any further, seeing as how it causes alot of sore points between us.


Scotskin

I fully agree you you....we should jettison the scotch, the welsh and irish :biggrin: As far as I'm concerned my parliament is full of foreigners (scoch, welsh.etc)... as for Ireland, although I support an united ireland and I'm irish catholic descent (both parents from the north) , I dont beleive there are any (or few) clean hands on both sides but I support my country and the army (including the scots and welsh!)....hard to look back now but from when the recent Troubles started in the late 60s to now things have moved on signifcantly and society has changed a great deal (Civil Rights marches and the B specials)..hope that the peace holds and develops further ...if Ireland ever becomes united, the issue of the significant protestant 'minority' will be a critical factor.....when I've been in Ireland with my mates form the north (all catholics) me and my english mates ahve been made welcome yet my mates from the north are called trouble

[tousunis]

It always seemed like north american kids thought it was a cool thing to support the IRA....very badass and irish. Now that we have seen first hand what terrorists can do to a people, does anybody still support them?...or have people wised up?

I never viewed the IRA as terrorists...I always believed what they did was for a good reason...you can sit and argue that they killed innocent Brit's but guess what? Same thing happened to them.

[King of all Buffets]

I never viewed the IRA as terrorists...I always believed what they did was for a good reason...you can sit and argue that they killed innocent Brit's but guess what? Same thing happened to them.

This exactly the casual attitude that I was talking about......I thought people had wised up.

[Scooter]

I've never really known what to think about them. I've never supported them and I've never condemned them either. I guess I just don’t have the info enough to make an educated decision. It's not like the actions or the IRA are as publicly known in our country as the Islamic threat is. Maybe that's the media's fault but maybe people in northern America are more concerned with the threats that face us than we are with the one's that are so far away. I doubt people in south America would care about the Islamic threat as much if oil wasn’t a factor. Unless people are directly affected by something it's much less likely for them to care or educate themselves on the matter. That's not mean or terrible, it's just human nature.

[Martina]

This exactly the casual attitude that I was talking about......I thought people had wised up.

Wised up to what? That innocent people have been killed on both sides?

You must be troubled Shaun, a colonist who suffers from white guilt and only see's the oprression of minority's and NEVER other whites.

Edit: Besides from that, the IRA has been disarmed for soem time now. Quite a while longer than the Loyalist side of things. Tell exactly what terrorist threat are they currently posing on anyone? NONE.

Way to try and shift the attention from Muslim extremists who actually pose a threat on N.America, the UK and Europe to the Irish. Stop being an idiot.

[King of all Buffets]

Wised up to what? That innocent people have been killed on both sides?

You must be troubled Shaun, a colonist who suffers from white guilt and only see's the oprression of minority's and NEVER other whites.

Edit: Besides from that, the IRA has been disarmed for soem time now. Quite a while longer than the Loyalist side of things. Tell exactly what terrorist threat are they currently posing on anyone? NONE.

Way to try and shift the attention from Muslim extremists who actually pose a threat on N.America, the UK and Europe to the Irish. Stop being an idiot.

Fuck your condacending attitude...Just because you pick and choose which child murderring terrorists are good and which are bad doesnt mean I have to. Everything is about race with you, this is about being against terrorists.......all terrorists. I know the IRA is dimantled and I am glad that they finally get a voice in parlament which would have lessend the bloodshed had they been given it years earlier.

[Martina]

Fuck your condacending attitude...Just because you pick and choose which child murderring terrorists are good and which are bad doesnt mean I have to. Everything is about race with you, this is about being against terrorists.......all terrorists. I know the IRA is dimantled and I am glad that they finally get a voice in parlament which would have lessend the bloodshed had they been given it years earlier.

No Shaun, EVERTYTHING IS ABOUT RACE WITH YOU.
You're always the first to lead the charge when it comes to shitty things white people do, but excuse away the threat of muslim extremists.
You have to know this about yourself....don't you?
Why else would you bring up the IRA who you acknowledge no longer pose a threat? Funny enough, you leave out the UDA under your terrorist concerns?Why is that? What's more curious is that your compleatly oblivious to the REAL THREATS that are going on.
Fuck, even the British aren't worried about the Irish right now. They are worried about the muslims they took in and are trying to fucking kill them.
Yet- you seem to think the IRA are thread worthy.

It's very easy for you to lable certian groups terrorist and others legitiment forces. But real terror comes in many forms and not all of them are para-military.

[King of all Buffets]

No Shaun, EVERTYTHING IS ABOUT RACE WITH YOU.
You're always the first to lead the charge when it comes to shitty things white people do, but excuse away the threat of muslim extremists.
You have to know this about yourself....don't you?
Why else would you bring up the IRA who you acknowledge no longer pose a threat? Funny enough, you leave out the UDA under your terrorist concerns?Why is that? What's more curious is that your compleatly oblivious to the REAL THREATS that are going on.
Fuck, even the British aren't worried about the Irish right now. They are worried about the muslims they took in and are trying to fucking kill them.
Yet- you seem to think the IRA are thread worthy.

It's very easy for you to lable certian groups terrorist and others legitiment forces. But real terror comes in many forms and not all of them are para-military.

I am probably more informed about the threat that the middle east and Muslim extremists pose then most are, because I dont look at things one sided and make knee jerk statments.

I couldnt give 2 fucks about the IRA the UDA or that whole part of the world. This thread was about me asking if peopleslaisser-faire attitude towrds white terrist groups like the IRA has changed in our post 9/11 world.

I assure that i suffer Zero white guilt....why should I?.....I am the first generation of my family to be in Canada... I never had slaves or killed any natives..... I never had a position of power in which to oppress jews, women or asians.... I have absolutely no reason to feel bad about being white....and i dont.. so get over it.

[Martina]

I am probably more informed about the threat that the middle east and Muslim extremists pose then most are, because I dont look at things one sided and make knee jerk statments.


Right. So there's two sides to the muslim coin but only one demention for the Irish.

I couldnt give 2 fucks about the IRA the UDA or that whole part of the world. This thread was about me asking if peopleslaisser-faire attitude towrds white terrist groups like the IRA has changed in our post 9/11 world.

Ah see, the truth comes out. You seem to think that people are more empathetic to them because they are white. Not because, some people actually may support their cause or not see them as a threat.


I assure that i suffer Zero white guilt....why should I?.....I am the first generation of my family to be in Canada... I never had slaves or killed any natives..... I never had a position of power in which to oppress jews, women or asians.... I have absolutely no reason to feel bad about being white....and i dont.. so get over it.

Wow- I guess you just seem to think that everyone else is guilty of this and needs to apologize.

You're the great white hope.:rolleyes:

[Doc]

the scotch

hahaha............you fkn wind-up merchant..........i hate that fkn word.

Rebuild the wall!!!

[King of all Buffets]

Right. So there's two sides to the muslim coin but only one demention for the Irish.

Porbably ten sides to that story, besides the religious sectarionism you have clutural intolerance and the ghost of a wanning colonial power.



Ah see, the truth comes out. You seem to think that people are more empathetic to them because they are white. Not because, some people actually may support their cause or not see them as a threat.

No i think people support them because they beleive in the cause...this was never the issue. My question was how would that view be affectted now that we in north America know what it feels like to be attacked by terrorist and have our own get killed. This was never meant as a question for someone like you Martina who has first hand experience..... I am talking more about the sheltered north Americans view.




Wow- I guess you just seem to think that everyone else is guilty of this and needs to apologize.

You're the great white hope.:rolleyes:
Dont twist my words, I dont think anybody needs to apologize for anything..... Anyways i doubt we will agree I think your idea of "White Pride" is of the Lastrites variety anyways.

[Martina]

Porbably ten sides to that story, besides the religious sectarionism you have clutural intolerance and the ghost of a wanning colonial power.

I don't think that you'll see too many Irish looking at the past, the focus is on the future.


No i think people support them because they beleive in the cause...this was never the issue. My question was how would that view be affectted now that we in north America know what it feels like to be attacked by terrorist and have our own get killed. This was never meant as a question for someone like you Martina who has first hand experience..... I am talking more about the sheltered north Americans view.

Your question is moot, since after 9//11 even the IRA has switched their gears when it comes to how the issue of a united Ireland should be resolved. Even Tony Blair acknowledged this. Once again, the only reason you bring this up is to shift the the attention from the real issues.


Dont twist my words, I dont think anybody needs to apologize for anything..... Anyways i doubt we will agree I think your idea of "White Pride" is of the Lastrites variety anyways.

Quite obviously you do or you wouldn't be calling me a closet Nazi. When have I ever used the term 'white pride' or even suggested that I idenify more with whites simply because they are white. People that personally know me and Lastrights wouldn't put us in the same relm, yet you seem to think it's deserved since I'm not an apologetic white.

[E4 jon]

[quote=Martina;49048]Now I don't know about you, but being held for an undetermined about of time without about being charged with anything sounds like a terrorist tatic to me.
quote]

Sounds like some prison camp in Cuba to me!

[E4 jon]

...But I believe the British need to worry about jolly ol' England and stay the fuck outta Ireland, and while they're at it, they can just make Scotland it's own soverign nation...I'm sick of seeing Dundee and Aberdeen listed as "UK" on bands tour pages. I'm most definently a supporter of the SNP (Scottish Nationalist Party) which advocates having Scotland back under the full and complete control of the Scottish, and having the british where they belong- back in Britain.

The Scots do have their own Parliament and elections as you well know. The Scottish people themselves voted for devolution but NOT a seperate State. The day they do want it they can have it. What you appear to be advocating is that against the wishes of the people of Scotland they are thrown out of The Union? Hmm, very democratic. Don't you think the people of Scotland should decide that for themselves?

As for the British leaving and going back to Britain, Britain includes Scotland you fool!

[suede70]

hahaha............you fkn wind-up merchant..........i hate that fkn word.

Rebuild the wall!!!

Doc

Being fair though I love scotch pancakes :biggrin:

I know some good builders...I'll get a qoute and we'll go half and half :biggrin:

I just looked at my post from last night...my spelling was terrible, I'd had a few too many....

[E4 jon]

If you're gonna go there then you have to also look into UDF and Ulster Loyalist terrorist actions, they have committed many, many atrocities in their checkered past where women and kids were involved. It is not a cut and dried situation by any means. There have been oppression and violence on both sides for many, many decades if not hundreds of years.
[/left]

Absolutely right.

[Martina]

Sounds like some prison camp in Cuba to me!

Special Powers Act.....

[King of all Buffets]

I don't think that you'll see too many Irish looking at the past, the focus is on the future.

Good, I couldnt think of a better way to deal with things.





Your question is moot, since after 9//11 even the IRA has switched their gears when it comes to how the issue of a united Ireland should be resolved. Even Tony Blair acknowledged this. Once again, the only reason you bring this up is to shift the the attention from the real issues.

The issue is global terrorist groups and I am not trying to shy away from that....take a look and you will see that 99 percent of the threads in politics dealing with the middle east and terrorists are started by me.



Quite obviously you do or you wouldn't be calling me a closet Nazi. When have I ever used the term 'white pride' or even suggested that I idenify more with whites simply because they are white. People that personally know me and Lastrights wouldn't put us in the same relm, yet you seem to think it's deserved since I'm not an apologetic white.

You must be slow today because i keep having to repeat myself. I dont feel bad for being white or feel the need for there to be an apologetic culture.....fucking deal with that Martina and move on.

[E4 jon]

I never viewed the IRA as terrorists...I always believed what they did was for a good reason...you can sit and argue that they killed innocent Brit's but guess what? Same thing happened to them.

What? Where did you get this crap from? The terrorists killed their fellow Irishmen as much as anyone from England, Wales, Scotland or any hapless tourist (including Americans) that got in the way of a car bomb.

Not terrorists? No, the same way that Al-Qaeda aren't. Bloody rose tinted fool.

[Martina]

Good, I couldnt think of a better way to deal with things.

Then once again, what is the purpose of this thead?


Maybe with the middle east but your heads up your ass when it comes to domestic terrorisim committed by Muslims.


You must be slow today because i keep having to repeat myself. I dont feel bad for being white or feel the need for there to be an apologetic culture.....fucking deal with that Martina and move on.

No, I'm not slow. I read what you wrote. I also have read enough of your posts to know what the real deal is.

[Hostilesouthern]

Quite obviously you do or you wouldn't be calling me a closet Nazi. When have I ever used the term 'white pride' or even suggested that I idenify more with whites simply because they are white. People that personally know me and Lastrights wouldn't put us in the same relm, yet you seem to think it's deserved since I'm not an apologetic white.

Wow, a closet Nazi who has many darkies at their very own wedding. *gasp* Even Lastrites sat at the same table with these darkies and did not bust out a noose! Amazing.

[King of all Buffets]

Then once again, what is the purpose of this thead?
Maybe with the middle east but your heads up your ass when it comes to domestic terrorisim committed by Muslims.

Maybe, but Its a learning curve and I am not willing to condemn every brown person or every muslim because of the act of marginal groups. At the same time i am all for
1. Tighter Immigration
2. More money for RCMP and CSIS and any other national security initiative.
3. Better/stricter deportation procedures.
4. Zero tolerance towards pro terrorist groups...charity fronts etc.
5. More money for the military

We can achieve all this without having to take away the rights of everyone thats mocha colored and darker.



No, I'm not slow. I read what you wrote. I also have read enough of your posts to know what the real deal is.

Ha the "real deal"

[Martina]

Wow, a closet Nazi who has many darkies at their very own wedding. *gasp* Even Lastrites sat at the same table with these darkies and did not bust out a noose! Amazing.

It's only because he didn't know about the jews and the homosexuals that were also there.:wink:

[King of all Buffets]

It's only because he didn't know about the jews and the homosexuals that were also there.:wink:

I could care less if your Eva braun.

[E4 jon]

The just cause of a united Ireland can in no way disguise or excuse the wanton violence of terrorism acted out on the streets where everyday folk go about their business. Both sides have an appalling track record in NI and as much as 'fighting for a cause' may seem romantic to some at a safe distance, it is eternal misery and suffering for those who've lived it.

The fools who think this is ALL about nationalism are poorly deluded. This is about that certainly to a degree, but also about organised crime, power and money.

The politicians and the terrorists have dragged the thing out to enhance their own personal ego and gain as much as genuinely regarding their cause. Just bear in mind that in NI a percentage of the population want a national Ireland and a percentage do not. Is the answer to expel the Protestants and then take a vote?

My personal views are well known in this matter. A United Ireland is the only just conclusion. Blowing people up to get it or prevent is not the way forward. This isn't a fucking movie folks, this is real life.

[E4 jon]

Notwithstanding what I've said above, I'd gladly see Paisely trying his luck at the Pearly Gates. Why no fucker hasn't put a bullet in that cunts head yet I fail to understand.

[Martina]

Notwithstanding what I've said above, I'd gladly see Paisely trying his luck at the Pearly Gates. Why no fucker hasn't put a bullet in that cunts head yet I fail to understand.

It's said that Ian was the best recuiter the IRA ever had ;)

[E4 jon]

It's said that Ian was the best recuiter the IRA ever had ;)
The man is thankfully an embarrasment to his own cause. He has single handedly converted more conservative middle class Englishmen to the cause of a united Ireland than anyone or anything else could ever have done. Nonetheless he deserves to meet his maker and answer for his crimes. The sooner the better in my opinion.

[Martina]

The man is thankfully an embarrasment to his own cause. He has single handedly converted more conservative middle class Englishmen to the cause of a united Ireland than anyone or anything else could ever have done. Nonetheless he deserves to meet his maker and answer for his crimes. The sooner the better in my opinion.

My dad said he knew a guy who got rounded up in a riot, in the next cell was Ian Paisley. Not wanting to waste this opportunity to talk shit to him, the republican yelled out "Your wifes got lice". Ian responded "Granted, but they're red, blue and white ".

[tousunis]

Fuck your condacending attitude...Just because you pick and choose which child murderring terrorists are good and which are bad doesnt mean I have to. Everything is about race with you, this is about being against terrorists.......all terrorists. I know the IRA is dimantled and I am glad that they finally get a voice in parlament which would have lessend the bloodshed had they been given it years earlier.

It's funny, when everyone saw Braveheart (you know, that movie about Scotland's fight for freedom? yeah you might have seen it) everyone was heart-warmed by what the scottish ARMY...not terrorist organization....ARMY went through to get it. Guess what? Ireland is STILL fighting for their freedom....only nowadays if you got invaded and still choose to fight for your freedom you're a fucking terrorist....ITS BULLSHIT. What's wrong with you? You don't see the big picture....I think you read and listen to way to much British media.

[weknowhowtolive]

It's funny, when everyone saw Braveheart (you know, that movie about Scotland's fight for freedom? yeah you might have seen it) everyone was heart-warmed by what the scottish ARMY...not terrorist organization....ARMY went through to get it. Guess what? Ireland is STILL fighting for their freedom....only nowadays if you got invaded and still choose to fight for your freedom you're a fucking terrorist....ITS BULLSHIT. What's wrong with you? You don't see the big picture....I think you read and listen to way to much British media.The difference is between fighting a conventional war, and using terror and civilian fear as a tactic.

But i agree. There is a very thin line between gurilla warfware and terrorism, and we have to be careful where we put that line...because if we keep backing it up, we'll be calling ourselves terrorists before we know it.

[Scotskin]

I never viewed the IRA as terrorists...I always believed what they did was for a good reason...you can sit and argue that they killed innocent Brit's but guess what? Same thing happened to them.

Yeah, but what about all the school-kids in their busses on the way to school who were bombed just for being a different religion....that's where I draw the line.

[King of all Buffets]

It's funny, when everyone saw Braveheart (you know, that movie about Scotland's fight for freedom? yeah you might have seen it) everyone was heart-warmed by what the scottish ARMY...not terrorist organization....ARMY went through to get it. Guess what? Ireland is STILL fighting for their freedom....only nowadays if you got invaded and still choose to fight for your freedom you're a fucking terrorist....ITS BULLSHIT. What's wrong with you? You don't see the big picture....I think you read and listen to way to much British media.

Maybe you should step back and look at the big picture. So by your example you also beleive that Hamas, Al-queda and Hezbollah are freedom fighters?

i know its a thin line between convention war between two armies and a situation where civillians are the targets.

[weknowhowtolive]

Hah...then by that, in WW2 we were terrorists from using the A bomb on Japanese civilian targets.

Like i said, thin line.

[tousunis]

Yeah, but what about all the school-kids in their busses on the way to school who were bombed just for being a different religion....that's where I draw the line.

What about all the Irish farmers and kids whose parents get their animals killed by the British army? Get their crops fucking poisoned...you don't hear about that in the media.

Maybe you should step back and look at the big picture. So by your example you also beleive that Hamas, Al-queda and Hezbollah are freedom fighters?

i know its a thin line between convention war between two armies and a situation where civillians are the targets.

Fighting back and just going out and killing a bunch of civilians is by NO means a "thin line"...we're not splitting hairs here. Ireland got invaded first, pure and simple. Al-queda is getting what they deserved...I'm not going to go off on my conspiracy theory rants...but if Al-Queda really did what they did then they brought all their shit upon themselves. It's not like the Irish are fucking suicide bombing their own people in record numbers....they are killing the enemy. Oh don't even fucking get me started on Hezbollah...maybe so many civilians wouldn't die if they didn't center themselves in crowds of innocents.

Hah...then by that, in WW2 we were terrorists from using the A bomb on Japanese civilian targets.

Like i said, thin line.

I still see no thin line of which you speak...who were the ones who kamikaze'd a bunch of fucking planes into pearl harbour? Oh yeah....

[Martina]

Yeah, but what about all the school-kids in their busses on the way to school who were bombed just for being a different religion....that's where I draw the line.

Children have never been the intended targets of either side-
Did this actually happen....or you just trying to be profound.

[Magners_Matt]

Maybe you should step back and look at the big picture. So by your example you also beleive that Hamas, Al-queda and Hezbollah are freedom fighters?

i know its a thin line between convention war between two armies and a situation where civillians are the targets.
You can't compare al-qaeda to the IRA. Their intentions and means are way too different to throw down that comparison so easily.

[bat_girl]

You can't compare al-qaeda to the IRA. Their intentions and means are way too different to throw down that comparison so easily.

Ahhh, but it SOOOO depends who you're talking to. Kook or not? Terrorist or freedom fighter? Who's carrying the party line? Who is a hero, and who's been brainwashed? Depends who's telling the tale.

[Scotskin]

Tousunis........you need to get your priorities straightened out.

I'm talking about the taking of innocent HUMAN lives. You're comparing that to farm animals? That's about seven different flavors of fucked up.

Comparing animals to humans in terms of worth of life...what are you, some commie leftist pinko PETA fucker? Seriously, get your head out of your ass.

[Scotskin]

Children have never been the intended targets of either side-
Did this actually happen....or you just trying to be profound.

I'm not being profound...it's happened more than once...and if I could find the article from about 8 years ago in Time Magazine, I'd show you the school kids were going to a largely Protestant school and were hit, deliberately, by the IRA. They even claimed responsibility for the attack.

Anyone else remember this?

[tousunis]

Tousunis........you need to get your priorities straightened out.

I'm talking about the taking of innocent HUMAN lives. You're comparing that to farm animals? That's about seven different flavors of fucked up.

Comparing animals to humans in terms of worth of life...what are you, some commie leftist pinko PETA fucker? Seriously, get your head out of your ass.

I also talked about how their crops get poisoned by the British....you know...the kind that HUMAN's eat? Don't ever try and make me out to be a PETA hippie fuck again because I am in no way, shape, or form sympathizing that shit. I enjoy a nice beefy steak as much as the next man. Next time finish reading the sentence.

[suede70]

Once again another IRA thread and once again it turns into a simplistic ..Irish fighting for their freedom...Kill Brits blah blah blah.... Just a couple of points

Started why - Civil Rights...the IRA was a spent force, the moronic approach of Stormont started it up
Terrorist outrages - Both sides e.g Monaghan = Omagh = Birmingham
Sectarianism - Both sides , Protestant and Catholic have been forced, whatever the reason (bigotry, defence) to look to their own
Media - British Press (and I thin you under estimate some of the more objective sections) = Republican Press

There is no black or white in these situations but if anyone,for whatever reason, takes up arms against my country or countrymen, then whats expected, we sit back and let the other side win?? fuck that!

So what are you saying then....fuck the peace process carry on fighting? Things have moved on for the majority...

[Magners_Matt]

Ahhh, but it SOOOO depends who you're talking to. Kook or not? Terrorist or freedom fighter? Who's carrying the party line? Who is a hero, and who's been brainwashed? Depends who's telling the tale.
Too some degree yeah. An organisation like al-qaeda wants to change the entire worlds point of view so it fits in line with their own, or at least doesn't go against it, through tactics that show a gross disregard for any human life. Where a group like the IRA are more after looking to achieve objectives like self determination and equal rights. I guess it can be said that at times the IRA has shown the same disregard as the muslims but for the most part they have been pretty good with keeping the things they've done condusive to a military objective. I'm not saying they haven't done nasty shit I'm just saying it can be said that the IRA is a very different group than Al-Qaida. It the same as comparing someone like Bush with Hitler, the shoe doesnt exactly fit.

[weknowhowtolive]

I still see no thin line of which you speak...who were the ones who kamikaze'd a bunch of fucking planes into pearl harbour? Oh yeah....But you think suicidal tactics by the IRA are just dandy because they are fighting for their freedom?

Define terrorist.

[Magners_Matt]

But you think suicidal tactics by the IRA are just dandy because they are fighting for their freedom?

Define terrorist.
Since when did the IRA deliberitely suicide attack shit.

[weknowhowtolive]

Since when did the IRA deliberitely suicide attack shit.So, then, the difference in your mind between a terrorist and a "freedom fighter" is if they are willing to strap a bomb to themselves, rather than leave it and run?

[Magners_Matt]

So, then, the difference in your mind between a terrorist and a "freedom fighter" is if they are willing to strap a bomb to themselves, rather than leave it and run?
I didn't say that, you mentioned the IRA's suicide tactics and I questioned their exsistence. Where's the confusion?

[Martina]

I'm not being profound...it's happened more than once...and if I could find the article from about 8 years ago in Time Magazine, I'd show you the school kids were going to a largely Protestant school and were hit, deliberately, by the IRA. They even claimed responsibility for the attack.

Anyone else remember this?

Find the artical. I challenge this.

[King of all Buffets]

You can't compare al-qaeda to the IRA. Their intentions and means are way too different to throw down that comparison so easily.

Well see thats where your wrong, the difference is that we may be sympathetic to the IRA because its a struggle and a people that we understand and come from the same(relative) culture and way of life. I have often seen parallels between this and the struggle of the palestinians against Israel.....funyy thing is you'll get people supportting the IRA on one hand and comdemming Hamas on the other.

[weknowhowtolive]

I didn't say that, you mentioned the IRA's suicide tactics and I questioned their exsistence. Where's the confusion?I wasnt accusing the IRA of using suicide tactics, maybe that was confusing....i was asking if it would change anything if they used them. You seem to be concentrated on the suicide part of it, like thats what makes blowing kids up a terrorist act. If some dude in a scally with an irish accent blows a bunch of kids up in the name of freedom, its cool. If some towel head blows up a bunch of kids in the name of freedom, he's a terrorist.

[SWIFTY]

It always seemed like north american kids thought it was a cool thing to support the IRA....very badass and irish. Now that we have seen first hand what terrorists can do to a people, does anybody still support them?...or have people wised up?
on the streets of west belfast , derry and in the south armagh countryside you will find the the surport for the ira hasn't changed much. its just there not at war sanymore with england so there not in the news as much, with other wars going on over the world ireland has been left alone to a degree, i don't surport the ira , but i fucking want ireland to be free

[SWIFTY]

Yeah, but what about all the school-kids in their busses on the way to school who were bombed just for being a different religion....that's where I draw the line.
wtf are you on about, the only time kids were attacked/bomed mothers shot at was by the uvf/rhc/uda
Sectarian attack on schoolchildren


Three Catholic schoolchildren received hospital treatment after being attacked by loyalists from the lower Shankill estate while waiting for a bus outside St Malachy's College on the Antrim road in North Belfast.
Parents have called for the bus stop to be moved after the 12-year-old boys were attacked on Tuesday 29 April at Carlisle Circus, as they stood just yards from their school.
One of the schoolboys was rushed to the nearby Mater hospital for treatment, while another was kept in overnight.
"My son is only a first year and was badly shaken by the attack, he had two large bumps on his head and had to take the next day off school," said one angry parent. "The fact this sectarian attack happened in broad daylight makes it even more worrying. Translink should move the stop to deter Protestants from attacking children."
St Malachy's College principal, Dr John Morrin, said the college is concerned that students should be attacked in this way. "Over the past 12 months we have been speaking with Translink with the view of moving the bus stop to a safer place, and I hope it is resolved quickly," he said.
And an Antrim mother has accused loyalists of attempting to force her 15-year-old son out of Antrim town.The woman and boy are both Protestant, while the boy's father is Catholic. The family live on the nationalist Rathenraw estate.
The woman who is too frightened to be identified, was speaking after her son, Paul, was verbally abused by a group of loyalists at a shopping centre on Saturday 3 May, just weeks after the boy was hospitalised and had his nose broken in a sectarian attack outside his school.
"I sent my son to a Protestant school but he had to leave because of harassment from loyalists. They then started to wait for him outside the Catholic school we sent him to. He had his nose broken four weeks ago when they attacked him outside the school."
Loyalists confronted the mother and son in the shopping centre and started taunting the schoolboy, admitting that they were the ones who had broken his nose. "Paul only escaped being beaten up again because people intervened," said the woman.
The woman said the attacks have led to her son taking panic attacks and being too afraid to leave his home, "Saturday was the first time Paul left the house in ages; the whole thing is making his life a misery."

[King of all Buffets]

on the streets of west belfast , derry and in the south armagh countryside you will find the the surport for the ira hasn't changed much. its just there not at war sanymore with england so there not in the news as much, with other wars going on over the world ireland has been left alone to a degree, i don't surport the ira , but i fucking want ireland to be free

Like I said before, i am talking more about the views held by outsiders.

[SWIFTY]

Like I said before, i am talking more about the views held by outsiders.
ah we never really bothered about what other folk thought , we were busy killing and maiming each other to worry about the outside world

[tousunis]

But you think suicidal tactics by the IRA are just dandy because they are fighting for their freedom?

Define terrorist.

Terrorists = people who constantly kill/terrorize innocent civilians to try and accomplish goals with no military strategy whatsoever.

[weknowhowtolive]

Terrorists = people who constantly kill/terrorize innocent civilians to try and accomplish goals with no military strategy whatsoever.And the IRA hasnt done that?

[Scotskin]

Find the artical. I challenge this.

I'll find it as soon as I possibly can.

[E4 jon]

My last thoughts on the subject of this thread........

'I am John LeCoor
I am young and poor
In Belfast I was born
Now here I stand
With my gun in my hand
On this cold and windy morn

I bear no hate
To my Protestant brother
To him I offer my hand
But to Englands sons
With their long barrelled guns
I pledge a resolute stand

May my childrens eyes
See the bright sun rise
On a morning clear and cold
When the flag that flies
In the Belfast skies
Is the Green and White and Gold.



Make of it as you will....

[Casual]

When I used to live in the Bronx, my local was a place called The Jolly Tinker, at the corner of Bedford Park BLVD and Webster AVE (http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py#mvt=h&maxp=search&trf=0&lon=-73.883593&lat=40.867282&mag=1). There was a "Bobby Sands Is Dead" article on the wall, a picture of Thatcher waving at the camera with the caption "Crime Wave", and plenty of old time NYFD gear. It was the kind of place where if you didn't see one of the locals for a few days it was because he died. The young ladies from Fordham were a nice bonus. I thought it was all well and cool. The politics didn't really enter into it. Of course, I did also learn that when you paid $3.00 for your Murphy's (http://www.murphysbeers.com/home.asp), it was $1 for the beer, $1 for the bar, and $1 for the IRA.

Also, if you tipped, every fourth beer was comped. Fuck politics for that deal.

http://c.myspace.com/Groups/00001/82/83/1843828_l.jpg

[Martina]

wtf are you on about, the only time kids were attacked/bomed mothers shot at was by the uvf/rhc/uda
Sectarian attack on schoolchildren



I was wondering the same thing myself....the only thing I can think of that children in a bus got hurt was the Omagh bombing, but even then the children ( who where visiting spanairds ) weren't the target.
It was mostly saturday shoppers who got hurt...and on both sides.

I think he's thinking of something he saw in a movie once.

[Magners_Matt]

I was wondering the same thing myself....the only thing I can think of that children in a bus got hurt was the Omagh bombing, but even then the children ( who where visiting spanairds ) weren't the target.
It was mostly saturday shoppers who got hurt...and on both sides.

I think he's thinking of something he saw in a movie once.
They probably would have gotten away totally unharmed if the cops did something in the good thirty min to a full hour after they got the call in.

[Martina]

They probably would have gotten away totally unharmed if the cops did something in the good thirty min to a full hour after they got the call in.

Naw, it was alot more complicated than that. The bombers...(the Real IRA claimed responsiblity) said the wrong street....a street the didn't exist and said it was near the courthouses....the bomb was actually in the city center and the police ended up ushering people towards the bomb thinking that they were avoiding it.

There's actually a movie about it called Omagh.

I've been through enough evacutations to know they they don't piss around when there is a legitiment bomb threat. When someone gets hurt it's usually the bombers that fucked up.

[WH Jay]

They probably would have gotten away totally unharmed if the cops did something in the good thirty min to a full hour after they got the call in.

Yeah...it was all the police's fault....

[suede70]

The only thing I can remember with kids and buses might have been this from 1972....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2132219.stm

As for Omagh, and the same goes for Monaghan, Enniskillen, Birmingham, Harrods, the Tower of London, Dublin amongst all the others, if you pick civilan targets then the chances are youre going to hit civilians, whatever the nationality or religion

The issue is now, I would have thought, whether its far enough down the road so that there isnt a return to violence and how does it move on ..any views on that rather than us all restating the same oldstuff we've done on here time and time before, on both sides of the fence :biggrin: ....

[london callum]

When I used to live in the Bronx, my local was a place called The Jolly Tinker, at the corner of Bedford Park BLVD and Webster AVE (http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py#mvt=h&maxp=search&trf=0&lon=-73.883593&lat=40.867282&mag=1). There was a "Bobby Sands Is Dead" article on the wall, a picture of Thatcher waving at the camera with the caption "Crime Wave", and plenty of old time NYFD gear. It was the kind of place where if you didn't see one of the locals for a few days it was because he died. The young ladies from Fordham were a nice bonus. I thought it was all well and cool. The politics didn't really enter into it. Of course, I did also learn that when you paid $3.00 for your Murphy's (http://www.murphysbeers.com/home.asp), it was $1 for the beer, $1 for the bar, and $1 for the IRA.

Also, if you tipped, every fourth beer was comped. Fuck politics for that deal.

http://c.myspace.com/Groups/00001/82/83/1843828_l.jpg


Why do you always include links to things in your posts?

[tousunis]

And the IRA hasnt done that?

You obviously have no fucking clue as to what you're talking about.

[weknowhowtolive]

You obviously have no fucking clue as to what you're talking about.I think i have a better clue than you do.

[SWIFTY]

You obviously have no fucking clue as to what you're talking about.
well can you tell me differnt i have lived throughout the IRA conflict/war/freedom struggle. be intrestred to hear another outsiderrs view, cause at thje end of the day its just an outsiders view you have, no matter whatyou read in books newspaper seen on tv, most of it was bullshit

[WBC]

The only thing I can remember with kids and buses might have been this from 1972....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2132219.stm

As for Omagh, and the same goes for Monaghan, Enniskillen, Birmingham, Harrods, the Tower of London, Dublin amongst all the others, if you pick civilan targets then the chances are youre going to hit civilians, whatever the nationality or religion

The issue is now, I would have thought, whether its far enough down the road so that there isnt a return to violence and how does it move on ..any views on that rather than us all restating the same oldstuff we've done on here time and time before, on both sides of the fence :biggrin: ....
theres never been an excuse for killing or terrorising wanes.... no political view, no cause justifies it.... wether they died from police plastic bullets, IRA bombs or loyalist petrol bomb attacks... things have moved on, thank christ...

two points I will make.... firstly, the comparison between the Republicans and the likes of Al Qaeda is horse shit.... one is a loose knit worldwide group proselytizing by force, who see an entire culture as degenerate and intend to destroy it by targeting solely civilians.... the Republicans have always had a single stated aim and tried to limit their targets to military personnel and targets.... if the connection between the two, if all it takes to draw them together is the use of violence to acheive political aims, then that means every government in the western world except maybe fuckin Switzerland are inseperable from the two as well..... there are no comparisons to be drawn.... in fact the comparison is easier drawn between the Muslims and the loyalists.... despite the British government targeting IRA members and 'troublemakers' for the loyalists, most of their targets were innocent Catholics..... targeted because the loyalist objective was to kill Catholics in the hope that this would put pressure on the IRA to lay down arms.... but even that comparison is shaky.... and the only 'holy war' we've ever seen was the last English invasion.... where, after fighting to impose papist Roman Catholicism in place of our native Celtic Catholicism, they decided we were still wrong and invaded again.... I genuinely think people who are politically naive need to stay out of heavy conversations.... you can criticise the 'plastic paddies' all you want, but if you expected the descendents of the Irish to turn their backs on their homeland then your naivette runs deeper than I couldve imagined...

secondly, as has been stated before, this whole conflict all started because we, as a people, had two choices..... fight, or roll over and hope the English eventually gave us back our country.... I dont expect people who've never had their country taken away or who've never had to physically fight for their nation to comprehend Nationalism, but the Irish did what they had to or we would have been wiped out or reduced to the status of slaves.... people died, and that is to be abhorred.... but had we never been in this situation, had we never been subjected to the shite we have, not one person wouldve died.... simple as that.... times have moved on.... but anyone who now wants to re-write history to paint my people as somehow having woken up one day in the British-ruled utopia and thinking 'they've been so nice to us, lets fuckin kill 'em'... it aint gonna happen....

[E4 jon]

You obviously have no fucking clue as to what you're talking about.

How can you call 'weknowhowtolive' out on this? I'm not saying he knows all about it, but you are the one who knows fuck all.

Now be a good cunt and shut the fuck up.

[weknowhowtolive]

theres never been an excuse for killing or terrorising wanes.... no political view, no cause justifies it.... wether they died from police plastic bullets, IRA bombs or loyalist petrol bomb attacks... things have moved on, thank christ...

two points I will make.... firstly, the comparison between the Republicans and the likes of Al Qaeda is horse shit.... one is a loose knit worldwide group proselytizing by force, who see an entire culture as degenerate and intend to destroy it by targeting solely civilians.... the Republicans have always had a single stated aim and tried to limit their targets to military personnel and targets.... if the connection between the two, if all it takes to draw them together is the use of violence to acheive political aims, then that means every government in the western world except maybe fuckin Switzerland are inseperable from the two as well..... there are no comparisons to be drawn.... in fact the comparison is easier drawn between the Muslims and the loyalists.... despite the British government targeting IRA members and 'troublemakers' for the loyalists, most of their targets were innocent Catholics..... targeted because the loyalist objective was to kill Catholics in the hope that this would put pressure on the IRA to lay down arms.... but even that comparison is shaky.... and the only 'holy war' we've ever seen was the last English invasion.... where, after fighting to impose papist Roman Catholicism in place of our native Celtic Catholicism, they decided we were still wrong and invaded again.... I genuinely think people who are politically naive need to stay out of heavy conversations.... you can criticise the 'plastic paddies' all you want, but if you expected the descendents of the Irish to turn their backs on their homeland then your naivette runs deeper than I couldve imagined...

secondly, as has been stated before, this whole conflict all started because we, as a people, had two choices..... fight, or roll over and hope the English eventually gave us back our country.... I dont expect people who've never had their country taken away or who've never had to physically fight for their nation to comprehend Nationalism, but the Irish did what they had to or we would have been wiped out or reduced to the status of slaves.... people died, and that is to be abhorred.... but had we never been in this situation, had we never been subjected to the shite we have, not one person wouldve died.... simple as that.... times have moved on.... but anyone who now wants to re-write history to paint my people as somehow having woken up one day in the British-ruled utopia and thinking 'they've been so nice to us, lets fuckin kill 'em'... it aint gonna happen....Of course...i dont think, and i hope, no one is arguing that Ireland deserves to be a free country, and was in the right to fight, and still is in the right to fight. As i said before, there is a fine line between what we call terrorism, and gurilla warfare...when a country is outnumbered, its hard for it to fight in conventional ways. Look at Palestine...fighting a huge force backed by the biggest military in the world, with sticks and rocks.

But Chris, i know you and me are both strongly against killing innocents, and if innocents are killed, it shouldnt be looked at as colateral (sp) damage when innocents are killed...no matter what side.

i dont know a whole lot about the IRA...only the stuff i see in movies or sometimes see on the news or online...ive never put a lot of study into it. Ive heard the IRA has bombed civilian targets. If its not true, fine. If its true...well then i will look at them as terrorists.

[tousunis]

My best friend is from Belfast....he tells me the stories he's seen with his own eyes. I just don't see how you can compare Irish people who are just trying to get their freedom and compare it to Muslim extremists that go and suicide bomb and kill 40 of their own innocent people. Thats what I'm talking about, weknowhowtolive.

[weknowhowtolive]

My best friend is from Belfast....he tells me the stories he's seen with his own eyes. I just don't see how you can compare Irish people who are just trying to get their freedom and compare it to Muslim extremists that go and suicide bomb and kill 40 of their own innocent people. Thats what I'm talking about, weknowhowtolive.If someone deleberatly bombs a civilian target for the purpose of spreading fear, then they are terrorists.

[Magners_Matt]

If someone deleberatly bombs a civilian target for the purpose of spreading fear, then they are terrorists.The way I see it most bombings weren't intended to spread fear among the civilian population but more to put pressure on the brits, but then again I didnt grow up there so I can only go off what my family tells me, i read, or the things I've seen when I go to visit.

[weknowhowtolive]

The way I see it most bombings weren't intended to spread fear among the civilian population but more to put pressure on the brits, but then again I didnt grow up there so I can only go off what my family tells me, i read, or the things I've seen when I go to visit.when the IRA blew up that Hotel when they were trying to kill Thatcher..what was that? No civilian risk there in a hotel?

[WH Jay]

I just don't see how you can compare Irish people who are just trying to get their freedom and compare it to Muslim extremists that go and suicide bomb and kill 40 of their own innocent people.

I wasn't going to get involved with all this but you need to understand what people who have live in NI/Ulster and to a lesser extent mainland Britain are saying.
Innocent people....ummmmm....Omagh, Warrington, Enniskillen, Harrods...many more...how were they not innocent...?
Just because the foreign policy of the country I reside in is seen as unacceptable to some people am I a legitimate target...?
Just because the foreign policy of the United States is seen as unacceptable to some people is everyone in the U.S a legitimate target...?
Of course not.....
Theres been a hell of a lot of people on both sides in NI/Ulster who have used the conflict as a front for their own nastiness and lots of innocent people have lost their lives because of it....
I can see why certain people felt that the Armalite and bombs were the only way forward but killing innocent people as collateral damage is bollocks...
Hopefully something can be worked out but its a big ask...

[suede70]

The way I see it most bombings weren't intended to spread fear among the civilian population but more to put pressure on the brits, but then again I didnt grow up there so I can only go off what my family tells me, i read, or the things I've seen when I go to visit.

Bollocks mate... I think Adolf tried that with us...as did Osama and his mob...oops and i think the IRb did this in the 1800's...

[weknowhowtolive]

Would the British people mind telling me what business England has with Ireland...why it needs to be there, and why it wants Ireland as part of the UK? I really dont know...i dont see the point.

[london callum]

Would the British people mind telling me what business England has with Ireland...why it needs to be there, and why it wants Ireland as part of the UK? I really dont know...i dont see the point.



It is part of Britain. Simple as that for me. I am sure someone will go into why it is part of Britain in much more detail later on though and probably someone will say that it isn't a part of Britain and go on for ages about that. Then again I am English not British so I shouldn't be answering your question.

[WH Jay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Northern_Ireland

Yeah I know its Wikipedia but I can't type at all and it has more information than I will ever know...

Notice though that the first settlers and as a result landowners from what is now Britain in the 17th century were half English half Scottish...

Nowadays its down to asking the people there what they want but of course a large amount of people lose out....
In the past the government of Britain I'm sure needed the votes of the Unionists to win elections etc....

[weknowhowtolive]

It is part of Britain. Simple as that for me. I am sure someone will go into why it is part of Britain in much more detail later on though and probably someone will say that it isn't a part of Britain and go on for ages about that. Then again I am English not British so I shouldn't be answering your question.What does England gain from keeping it part of Britain. If this has been going on for 200+ years, doesnt it seem like they are never going to accept British rule, and an the best for both sides would be to back down and allow them to take up their own rule?

[weknowhowtolive]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Northern_Ireland

Yeah I know its Wikipedia but I can't type at all and it has more information than I will ever know...

Notice though that the first settlers and as a result landowners from what is now Britain in the 17th century were half English half Scottish...

Nowadays its down to asking the people there what they want but of course a large amount of people lose out....
In the past the government of Britain I'm sure needed the votes of the Unionists to win elections etc....Yeah ive read all that stuff...im wondering what personal views are.

I hardly think England would see Ireland as a threat if it was allowed to be its own country under its own rule.

[suede70]

Would the British people mind telling me what business England has with Ireland...why it needs to be there, and why it wants Ireland as part of the UK? I really dont know...i dont see the point.
Mainly its a question that couldnt be answered in one line or possibly make much sense... Goes back hundreds of years and a question of power and religion...I suppose that the issue is the north being part of the mainland after the 1921 partition...in the late 60's independence was dying away but the issue of the rights denied to catholics (at the same time they were still being denied to blacks in the US)was being held up in NI by the protestant hegmony in Stormont, kicked it all off.... The comments i read on here about the brits make me fucking laugh..like we're still trying to build an empire!!!!

[suede70]

What does England gain from keeping it part of Britain. If this has been going on for 200+ years, doesnt it seem like they are never going to accept British rule, and an the best for both sides would be to back down and allow them to take up their own rule?

That would be a question for the sizeable protestant population in the north to answer..... personally I'd say let them (and the welsh and the scots) go..putting it into context would the US let Hawaii go if the population started an independance campaign and attacks or say areas of prior spanish rule..or in Canada, Quebec?

[WH Jay]

I hardly think England would see Ireland as a threat if it was allowed to be its own country under its own rule.

I'm sure too but then you'd have the Unionists living in a foreign country...
Interesting to have seen what would have happened if Britain had pulled out though...by some accounts the Republic didn't totally support a United Ireland all the time...or that may just have been British media lies....ha ha...

[weknowhowtolive]

That would be a question for the sizeable protestant population in the north to answer..... personally I'd say let them (and the welsh and the scots) go..putting it into context would the US let Hawaii go if the population started an independance campaign and attacks or say areas of prior spanish rule..or in Canada, Quebec?I think Hawaii is quite happy with being part of the US. I also dont remember them fighting back since we made them a state, bombing people, constantly coming to congress asking for us to leave them alone.

[suede70]

I think Hawaii is quite happy with being part of the US. I also dont remember them fighting back since we made them a state, bombing people, constantly coming to congress asking for us to leave them alone.

I wasnt saying that literally for Hawaii but a more general what if..... Hawaii wasnt part of the US and was taken to be part of it...if a independance group started along the same lines would the US let them go, if they werent the majority (and yes there are arguements about the artifcial nature of Ulster after the partition to ensure prtoestant dominance)? And Aztlan and MEChA? And French Quebec.... anyway I said to myself on the old board that I wouldnt keep posting on these types of discussions, always looking back rather than forward in most cases...and most of the salient points have been put by WBC and a few others in the past... Hope thats helpful

[sidcup kev]

with the way this topic is going ...........you wonder at times how they managed to get either side to talk in the last few years ..........

[Loathe]

I don't like to get into this fight too often, but I'll say this.

The IRA did some good and maybe even great things during the civil rights fight.

However as time went on I was upset by some of the mistakes they made, and some of the attacks that led to civilian causualties.

Also, lets not forget kids, the PIRA is a maoist organization. They don't honestly want a free republic, they want a nationalist and socialist nirvana that is never going to happen.

I support the republican movement and a united Ireland, but not the IRA.

[WBC]

the Provisionals are a Marxist organisation in name only.... same way Milosevic's party were called a Socialist party and were about as red as me....

'settlers' is one word for the plantation..... I would use different ones....

Northern Ireland was never part of Britain... nor was Ireland.... hence the existence of the UK.... Britain is the physical island and the countries that comprise it.... nor are the six counties that comprise Northern Ireland 'Ulster'.... Ulster was a nine county kingdom stretching from East to West.... now its been scissored up because, when the census was taken during the partition discussions, only three counties were eligible to remain in British rule due to a British-allied majority, the other counties were basically gerrymandered cos they knew the three counties couldnt stand alone....

killing innocents is wrong.... no debate.... but you cant expect to take someones land, attempt to annihilate thousands of years of culture of a people whose blood is tied to the land, and act shocked when they fight back..... thats naivette.... as to hitting Thatcher, yeah, I'm sure a whole lotta people woulda been gutted had they succeeded in killing that fuckin vampire....

'terrorism' is a buzzword, mud to throw at your political enemies.... all of the definitions I've seen here used for terrorism could be applied to every state power in the world....

the Republics' government are in no rush to have the North back... think about, if you're a corrupt gangster government, would you want tens of thousands of politically fanatical and savvy people suudenly becoming part of your country? not to mention the thousands of ex-paramilitaries?

[Magners_Matt]

when the IRA blew up that Hotel when they were trying to kill Thatcher..what was that? No civilian risk there in a hotel?
That hotel was filled with tory cabinet and party members, so yeah I would say that was a legit target.

[weknowhowtolive]

That hotel was filled with tory cabinet and party members, so yeah I would say that was a legit target.Coulda hit civilians.

[WH Jay]

'settlers' is one word for the plantation..... I would use different ones....



Chris, I wasn't really sure what to call them just for simple understanding I called 'em settlers but sure, they were part of the "invasion" if you like...
My real point was this insistence on people saying the English commandered NI when half of the original 'colonialists' were Scottish sent by a Scottish King...

Hows the little one doing.....?
You got any sleep yet...?

[Magners_Matt]

Coulda hit civilians.
So could any bombing campaign by any armed force of any recognised government.

[weknowhowtolive]

So could any bombing campaign by any armed force of any recognised government.Wow hey you finally fucking get it about the thin line...

[WBC]

Chris, I wasn't really sure what to call them just for simple understanding I called 'em settlers but sure, they were part of the "invasion" if you like...
My real point was this insistence on people saying the English commandered NI when half of the original 'colonialists' were Scottish sent by a Scottish King...

Hows the little one doing.....?
You got any sleep yet...?
the view is that the settlers were pro-English.... it always seemed strange to me that the planters were so pro-English yet many were the victims of the Highland clearances...

the wane is grand, and finally gettin into a routine.... though she is a spoiled wee shite already and has me and her Mother wrapped around her finger.... she's also learned to shout when we leave the room... which makes for amusing evenings... haha

[SWIFTY]

The Ireland we live in today is a very different place from 15 years ago. There is now an all-Ireland agenda with huge potential.
Nationalists and republicans have a confidence that will never again allow anyone to be treated as second class citizens.

there is a growing support for republicanism , those who oppose change are not going to simply roll over. It will always be a battle a day between those who want maximum change and those who want to maintain the status quo. But if republicans are to prevail, if the peace process is to be successfully concluded and Irish sovereignty and re-unification secured, then the IRA will still need Surrport