"Missing Link" Skeleton

[weknowhowtolive]

So....as they get closer to finding the missing link...does it change anything in the micro/macro evolution debate?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214722,00.html?sPage=fnc.science/evolution

"
— The shoulder blades resemble those of a gorilla rather than a modern human.
— The neck seems short and thick like a great ape's, rather than the more slender version humans have to keep the head stable while running.
— The organ of balance in the inner ear is more ape-like than human.
— The fingers are very curved, which could indicate climbing ability, "but I'm cautious about that," Spoor said."

[bacon_lettuce_tomato]

Psh, luckily I am a anthropology nerd as well as a history nerd to save the day on this one. There is no such concept of a "missing link" nor is there any certainty in the anthropological world that Humans evolved from Australeopithicus Aferensis. There is speculation that humans did, but they could have just as well been a competing species with our ancestors that we just havent discovered yet. You want some real juicy anthropological debate? Look up Kebara Cave in Isreal where Homo erectus skeletons were discovered dating back to 60,000 years ago while just 20 miles away while anatomically modern Homo sapien skeletons were found dating to 100,000 years ago. Speciation and human lineage isnt so cut and dry.

[Professor]

man, i love reading about scientific finds...that shit fascinates me.

[grouchybastid]

Please don't use the term "missing link". There is no such thing, and it only confuses the issue.

That being said, when I read about this particular find I got pretty psyched. Here's a better article:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=00076C1D-62D1-1511-A2D183414B7F0000

[bacon_lettuce_tomato]

And if you want even more controversial anthropological debate, do some research on the Kennewick man. It is a skeleton currently being held by the Army Corp of Engineers who refuse to let anthropologists research it. Discovered near Kennewick, WA, and dating back to 9600 years ago, it is the oldest and most complete skeleton found in North America. Why is it so controverisal? Because it is the skeleton of a caucasoid: a white european man.

[Diana E]

And if you want even more controversial anthropological debate, do some research on the Kenowick man. It is a skeleton currently being held by the Army Corp of Engineers who refuse to let anthropologists research it. Discovered near Kenowick, WA, and dating back to 9600 years ago, it is the oldest and most complete skeleton found in North America. Why is it so controverisal? Because it is the skeleton of a caucasoid: a white european man.

I personally like those cocaine mummies they found in Egypt. Can't remember how old they are off hand but these mummies tested positive for cocaine. The crazy thing is that cocaine didn't reach africa for some crazy amount of time AFTER these mummies... the only place cocaine is found during that time is in south america. Hmmmm...

It insinuates there was some kind of trans-atlantic trade thousands of years before columbus.

[bacon_lettuce_tomato]

I personally like those cocaine mummies they found in Egypt. Can't remember how old they are off hand but these mummies tested positive for cocaine. The crazy thing is that cocaine didn't reach africa for some crazy amount of time AFTER these mummies... the only place cocaine is found during that time is in south america. Hmmmm...

It insinuates there was some kind of trans-atlantic trade thousands of years before columbus.
There is another reall crazy interesting theory of American Aboriginese, who would have closely resembled australian and other south pacific aboriginal races, existed in the Americas thousands of years before the Siberian Migration of people from Asia to the Americas who then became the ancestors to the indian populations. Aparently the invading peoples from Siberia killed off the other populations with intorduced disease. What goes around comes around and all that shit.

[weknowhowtolive]

I agree, i love reading about that kinda shit. I dont really care what you call it, missing link or not, its facinating. Thanks for the link, grouchy, ill check it out. I used to get National Georaphic and remember reading about Kennewick man...ill have to look at it again.

[grouchybastid]

And if you want even more controversial anthropological debate, do some research on the Kennewick man. It is a skeleton currently being held by the Army Corp of Engineers who refuse to let anthropologists research it. Discovered near Kennewick, WA, and dating back to 9600 years ago, it is the oldest and most complete skeleton found in North America. Why is it so controverisal? Because it is the skeleton of a caucasoid: a white european man.

Hmm. Not exactly. Scientists have had access to the skeleton since 2005, and many (if not most) experts agree that the features are more like the Ainu, a tribe that lived in Japan. If anything, Kennewick Man supports the theory of human migration into North America over the land bridge that is now the Bering Strait.

The reason they didn't have access at first was more to do with the Native American tribes in the area pressing a tribal claim to the skeleton.

[bacon_lettuce_tomato]

Do you have a source for that? My understanding is that to this day there has been no definite distinction of race due to restrictions in research. However, there are seven other skeletons found from within 1000 years of kennewick man that also contain certain traits common only to caucasoid remains.

Edit: preferably a source more reliable than wikipedia.

[weknowhowtolive]

Here ya go.

http://www.kennewick-man.com/kman/news/index.html

[grouchybastid]

Do you have a source for that? My understanding is that to this day there has been no definite distinction of race due to restrictions in research. However, there are seven other skeletons found from within 1000 years of kennewick man that also contain certain traits common only to caucasoid remains.

Edit: preferably a source more reliable than wikipedia.

People all the time dissing on Wikipedia :tongue:

http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/html/kennewick_man.html
http://www.kennewick-man.com (http://www.kennewickman.com)
http://archaeology.about.com/od/kennewickman/a/caucasoid2.htm
(LastRites, I'll point you to this paragraph:"Race" is a very difficult concept to explain. It's difficult because culture has defined it, not science. In fact, the first physical anthropology studies done in the western world were an attempt to find the scientific bases of race (and, I'm afraid, thus a basis for racial discrimination), and they were a complete failure. :biggrin: )
http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/kman/idea_of_race.php

[bacon_lettuce_tomato]

Here ya go.

http://www.kennewick-man.com/kman/news/index.html
I cant find any mention of anything grouchy claimed on this site. Am I missing something?

[bacon_lettuce_tomato]

People all the time dissing on Wikipedia :tongue:

http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/html/kennewick_man.html
http://www.kennewickman.com
http://archaeology.about.com/od/kennewickman/a/caucasoid2.htm
(LastRites, I'll point you to this paragraph: :biggrin: )
For a good reason, and this is case in point! None of your other sources say what Wikipedia said about the Kennewick man. That and I am always biased towards sites that end in .edu like your first one above.

[weknowhowtolive]

Sorry...its on the first page.

http://www.kennewick-man.com/

The video says "10 years of legal battles are finished. and scientists are begining to learn" blah blah blah.

[grouchybastid]

For a good reason, and this is case in point! None of your other sources say what Wikipedia said about the Kennewick man. That and I am always biased towards sites that end in .edu like your first one above.

Well sure, I'll take a .edu at closer to face value than most others.

What info are you saying Wikipedia has that the others don't? About his facial features being more like the Ainu?

[EDIT] Here's some linkage, in case my above question is what you were asking:

http://www-geology.ucdavis.edu/~cowen/HistoryofLife/kennewick.html <-- an .edu to start things off!
http://www.kennewick-man.com/kman/news/story/7997435p-7890471c.html
http://www.cr.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/powell_rose.htm <-- that one is some DENSE reading, but good info
http://www.physorg.com/news64938563.html
http://www.nas.org/publications/sci_newslist/7_1/d_kennewick_artic.htm

[LastRites]

The Kennewick skeleton is a very insteresting subject.
The Native population wanted to quickly bury him to avoid any debate on "who was here first" and all that jazz.
I dont think its 100% confirmed who he actually was, all they are saying is that he is "most" related to this or that population.
He is caucasian......debate #1.
He is Ainu..............debate #2.
He is in between.....debate #3.
I think in order to understand this topic better...we gotta debate on who the Ainu actually were or are. Where does their evolutionary, cultural and or migration branch fit it and how we compare it to the Kennewick skeleton. I think Im gonna go with #3 here from what I have read so far.

[Oz.]

I cant find any mention of anything grouchy claimed on this site. Am I missing something?
You claim to be an anthro buff and don't know Japan was populated by the Ainu before mongoloids? This simple fact, given Japan's proximity to the Bering Strait, should dispel any surprise at early non-mongoloid finds in the Americas. Several waves of immigration occured, and they didn't all look like Amerindians of today. And that's before you consider that the races we know in modern times were not distinct 10k ago...

[Oz.]

The Kennewick skeleton is a very insteresting subject.
The Native population wanted to quickly bury him to avoid any debate on "who was here first" and all that jazz.
I dont think its 100% confirmed who he actually was, all they are saying is that he is "most" related to this or that population.
He is caucasian......debate #1.
He is Ainu..............debate #2.
He is in between.....debate #3.
I think in order to understand this topic better...we gotta debate on who the Ainu actually were or are. Where does their evolutionary, cultural and or migration branch fit it and how we compare it to the Kennewick skeleton. I think Im gonna go with #3 here from what I have read so far.
Yep.

ffl

[bacon_lettuce_tomato]

You claim to be an anthro buff and don't know Japan was populated by the Ainu before mongoloids? This simple fact, given Japan's proximity to the Bering Strait, should dispel any surprise at early non-mongoloid finds in the Americas. Several waves of immigration occured, and they didn't all look like Amerindians of today. And that's before you consider that the races we know in modern times were not distinct 10k ago...
I was talking about grouchies claim that the kennewick man was determined to be of asiatic origin. Where you getting this from?

[grouchybastid]

The Kennewick skeleton is a very insteresting subject.
The Native population wanted to quickly bury him to avoid any debate on "who was here first" and all that jazz.
I dont think its 100% confirmed who he actually was, all they are saying is that he is "most" related to this or that population.
He is caucasian......debate #1.
He is Ainu..............debate #2.
He is in between.....debate #3.
I think in order to understand this topic better...we gotta debate on who the Ainu actually were or are. Where does their evolutionary, cultural and or migration branch fit it and how we compare it to the Kennewick skeleton. I think Im gonna go with #3 here from what I have read so far.

Nobody said Kennewick man is Ainu. What has been said is his skull/facial features most resemble the Ainu.

The Ainu, now that's some fascinating stuff. The tribe still exists on Hokkaido and Sakhalin, and are genetically as well as linguistically distinct from any other population in the world. Wacky stuff.

[Oz.]

I was talking about grouchies claim that the kennewick man was determined to be of asiatic origin. Where you getting this from?
I read what he was saying as kennewick apparently being of non-mongoloid extraction. I could be wrong. If by "Asiatic" you mean mongoloid (ie the current Asian racial stereotype), he wasn't saying that at all. Quite the opposite. If by Asiatic you simply mean from Asia, then that's still not what he said either. He said the Ainu is what he resembles.

Edit: though I probably did misunderstand your original question.

[Dutch Raven]

I thought we found Fawad ages ago...