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Hostilesouthern
10-11-2006, 07:23 PM
I am a member of a few political action groups. I received this letter via email this afternoon and think this is one of the most insightful looks into Christian Conservatives and the struggle to keep them out of GOP leadership......


Christians and Big Government

Dear Lindsay,

There was a day when social conservatives were united with economic conservatives in the belief that small, limited government was not only good for our economy and the prosperity of American families, but essential to protect traditional family values. We all fought for a limited federal government -- a government that had the decency to respect the American people by staying out of their lives. Small government meant that all Christians could practice their faith as they saw fit. Big government violates those rights by meddling in our lives, misusing our hard-earned money, and dictating cultural norms to us. We were and are rightly outraged when government imposes wrong-headed values through its monopoly of schools, government-funded "art," and taxpayer funded "family planning."

As a united conservative movement, we win when we defend traditional values against big government pretensions to impose its brand of "morality" on the American people. We lose when we attempt to use government power to impose our values on others.

I am a devout Christian. I am a so-called "values voter." As a member of Congress and as Majority Leader, I believe I faithfully served our values. One of my proudest moments in Congress was beating the Democrats’ attempts to meddle in the affairs of families that had chosen to opt out of secular government education by home-schooling their children. I took on the entire political establishment, but we only won because thousands of Christian home-schoolers demanded that Congress keep its nose out of their decision to raise and educate their children as they saw fit.

I am also a free market economist by training, and I believe that economic freedom is vitally important in the defense of the American family. Big issues like retirement security, tax reform, school choice and spending restraint will determine whether or not families will be dependent and subservient to government. Who owns your retirement? Who decides how you provide for your family’s future. Can you leave your estate to your grandchildren, or is it the government's? Will the government socially engineer your life through the tax code? Will liberal education bureaucrats determine your child’s education? These are all issues that used to matter to the political leadership of Christian conservative voters.

And while for most in the Christian conservative movement these issues still resonate, the same cannot be said for some of our Washington, D.C.-based religious leaders. Right after I had left Congress and joined FreedomWorks, we found ourselves embroiled in a major tax fight in Alabama. Oddly, an old friend, Bob Riley, had been elected governor only to immediately reverse course, cut a deal with the teachers union, and advocate a massive tax increase to prop up the failing government school system. It was "what Jesus would do," he said. I took personal offense to that, as did many of the voters who had just worked so hard to elect him Governor. Our activists had joined forces with local Christian conservatives, including the Alabama Christian Coalition, to fight both bad policy and a sense of personal betrayal.

We were blindsided when the national leadership of the Christian Coalition endorsed the Governor’s proposed tax increase, joining forces with liberal interests in the state that had actively worked against our values for a generation. In the end we won, thanks in no small part to the fact that members of the local Christian Coalition chapter parted ways with the national organization and stood with Alabama FreedomWorks, the Alabama Policy Institute, local taxpayer organizations, and a host of other small government advocates all united in the effort to stop a big government tax-hike scheme.

Today, the national Christian Coalition has joined forces with MoveOn.org in another government grab of private property dealing specifically with ownership of the Internet. They are wrong on the specifics of the issue, and they are wrong to associate with and comfort radical liberals who have demonstrated nothing but disdain for conservative values. Armey’s Axiom: Make a deal with the Devil, and you are the junior partner.

Another Armey's Axiom says that if it is about power, you lose. And unfortunately when it comes to James Dobson, my personal experience has been that the man is most interested in political power.

As Majority Leader, I remember vividly a meeting with the House leadership where Dobson scolded us for having failed to "deliver" for Christian conservatives, that we owed our majority to him, and that he had the power to take our jobs back. This offended me, and I told him so.

In a later meeting Dobson and a colleague came into my office to lobby against a trade bill, asking me to stop the legislation from going to the House floor. They were wrong on the issue, and I told them no. Would you at least postpone the vote, they asked? We have a direct mail fundraising letter about to go out to our membership, they said.

I wondered then if their opposition to the bill was driven less by their moral compass and more by the need to rile their membership and increase revenue. I wondered then, if these self-appointed Christian leaders, like many politicians, had come to Washington to do good, but had instead done well for themselves.

Dobson later ran an orchestrated campaign against me in my race to retain the Majority Leader post, telling my colleagues that I was not a good Christian. I prefer to leave that decision to Lord God Almighty on Judgment Day.

Maybe you can understand why I have recently been quoted referring to this person as a "bully."

And it continues today, as Focus on the Family deliberately perpetuates the lie that I am a consultant to the ACLU. I have never had any relationship with the ACLU and oppose most of that organization’s work. The ACLU has twisted "civil liberty" to mean something quite the opposite.

Nowhere was it more wrong, with more disastrous policy ends, than in the Terri Schiavo intervention. While her case was heartbreaking, our Founders created a government built on checks and balances, not a nation run by an arbitrary and imperial Congress. Congress cannot simply override our entire state and federal legal system to intervene in one person’s situation. It was truly a chilling act.

Imagine the precedent-setting nature of such an action when a different House of Representatives, one with "Speaker Nancy Pelosi" wielding the gavel, holds power.

Freedom works. Freedom is a gift from God Almighty, and we have a responsibility to protect it. Christians face a temptation to power when we are fortunate enough to have a majority of support in Congress. But government can never advance a faith that is freely given, and it is corrosive to even try. Just look at Europe, where decades of nanny-state activism— including taxpayer support for churches and for religious political parties— have severely eroded the faith. In America today, too many of our Christian leaders fail to recognize the temptation to power and the danger it holds for our society and our faith.

And so America’s Christian conservative movement is confronted with this divide: small government advocates who want to practice their faith independent of heavy-handed government versus big government sympathizers who want to impose their version of "righteousness" on others through the hammer of law.

We must avoid the temptation to use the power of government to perfect our society and its citizens. That is the same urge that drives the Left and the socialists, and I can assure you that every program or power we give government today in the name of our values can be turned against us when the day comes where a majority of Congress is hostile to us.

Instead, we need to limit the sphere of government and create civil space where private institutions, individual responsibility and religious faith can flourish. By reducing the size of the welfare state, we increase the importance of the works of Christian charities and our church communities. By reducing the tax burden on families, we make it easier for Christian households to tithe or for young mothers to stay home to raise their children. The same is true for retirement security based on ownership. Reducing the ever-growing reach of the federal government means local communities, and more important, parents, are free to establish the standards and values for the education of their children.

Consider the welfare reform we passed in 1996. By reducing bureaucracy and dependency and emphasizing work and responsibility, we changed conditions for an entire segment of our society. Since welfare reform passed, teen pregnancy, welfare caseloads, and the number of abortions in America have all declined. That is the kind of policy change that values voters need to support, and it is the result of limiting government’s power over our lives.

Our movement must avoid the temptations of power and those who would twist the good intentions of Christian voters to support policies that undermine freedom and grow government. Freedom is what gives America its unique place in the world, and protecting and expanding our freedom is what creates the space necessary to keep our faith strong and growing.

Sincerely,


Dick Armey
Chairman
FreedomWorks

weknowhowtolive
10-11-2006, 07:48 PM
Strangely, i have no idea who that dude is. I agree 100% with the economic issues of conservatives...i vote economicly about as convservative as is possible in CA...but being an athiest and a social liberal really makes it hard for me to stumoch a lot of what they say.

But I am small government and hate seeing congress and the feds stick their hands where they dont belong. Good article. I wish people like that could run around here and win.

siobahn
10-11-2006, 08:46 PM
people who follow this stuff... do you think the gap between the two groups outlined here (the christians who seek to increase government intervention and the economic conservatives who seek to limit it) is growing or shrinking? from what i have read, it seems that things are getting more polarized and splits are ever more defined.. may be wrong though.

weknowhowtolive
10-11-2006, 08:47 PM
people who follow this stuff... do you think the gap between the two groups outlined here (the christians who seek to increase government intervention and the economic conservatives who seek to limit it) is growing or shrinking? from what i have read, it seems that things are getting more polarized and splits are ever more defined.. may be wrong though.Id say the gap between them has been growing for years...ive seen nothing to show that its shrinking or staying where it is. Maybe less publicized, but its still growing.

Cuchulainn
10-11-2006, 09:55 PM
We must avoid the temptation to use the power of government to perfect our society and its citizens. That is the same urge that drives the Left and the socialists, and I can assure you that every program or power we give government today in the name of our values can be turned against us when the day comes where a majority of Congress is hostile to us.
I liked the entire article, but I thought this paragraph was especially important.

To quote another civil libertarian, "More freedom means less government."

I'm impressed. I can't usually read posts that long, but I made it through that one.

steelcityskin
10-11-2006, 11:22 PM
way off topic, but i really wish my name was dick armey. how fucking cool would that be?

Tokyohoon
10-11-2006, 11:29 PM
Excellent letter, Lindsay.

This is a growing problem for the conservative community. For the most part, the Christian bloc has been closely alligned with the goals of economic conservatives, but recently have begun to take stances that attempt to legislate their moral views upon the rest of society.

The whole debate about gay marriage was (and still is) a classic example.

From an economic standpoint, allowing gay marriage is an excellent idea - reducing promiscuity (and thus medical costs) and promoting economic unions that increase equity and economic standing is a good idea for any segment of society.

Christian conservatives (mostly) opposed it on strictly religious grounds.

Would it harm anyone? No. As said above, these are the people "who want to impose their version of "righteousness" on others through the hammer of law."

...and this is the road that leads to theocracy.

weknowhowtolive
10-11-2006, 11:31 PM
Excellent letter, Lindsay.

This is a growing problem for the conservative community. For the most part, the Christian bloc has been closely alligned with the goals of economic conservatives, but recently have begun to take stances that attempt to legislate their moral views upon the rest of society.

The whole debate about gay marriage was (and still is) a classic example.

From an economic standpoint, allowing gay marriage is an excellent idea - reducing promiscuity (and thus medical costs) and promoting economic unions that increase equity and economic standing is a good idea for any segment of society.

Christian conservatives (mostly) opposed it on strictly religious grounds.

Would it harm anyone? No. As said above, these are the people "who want to impose their version of "righteousness" on others through the hammer of law."

...and this is the road that leads to theocracy.Oh snap.

You just changed my stance on gay marriage.

Blue Blood
10-12-2006, 04:54 AM
Oh snap.

You just changed my stance on gay marriage.
Damnit!
Don't give in so easily,stand your ground man!

militarymite
10-12-2006, 05:32 AM
Those so called Christian conservartives with all their neat little labels they peel off and stick on themselves and others make me sick. I'm so tired of having their "liberals are evil" diatribe wiped in my face everytime I read something written by the conservative side. How the hell do they know what a "liberal" thinks or will act in any certain situation? Everyone in this country that does'nt identify with the so called christian conservatives is considered a "liberal," a name that has been turned into a dirty word used to split and divide our nation. The "center" and "left" is a large and very diverse group of free and common sense thinkers, a place where ideas come from. The "right" or "christian right" operates on a strict ideology, a belief that they are right and never open to ideas or negotiation, so thier only option is simply to attack the other side. The christian conservatives have worked long and hard and spent fortunes gaining the power they so desperately wanted by winning control of the white house and congress and now they are boo hooing it's not turned out to be the utopia they were promised by the people they elected. Washington is about money and power and when it's handed to any majority, it will eventually corrupt them. We the people would be alot better off if everyone worked together for the good of the nation where everyone's issues were addressed, and everyone has a voice. This divisiveness, name calling, nametagging, and intolerance has to stop if this nation is to survive and move forward in the world.

ienjoybeer
10-12-2006, 12:32 PM
I'm not christian, but I couldn't agree more with this dude. I hope the whole christian conservative movement turns to small business and a decentralized american government.
....In the meantime, I'm goin up to Washington to shoot me some Lobbyists.

weknowhowtolive
10-12-2006, 12:44 PM
Damnit!
Don't give in so easily,stand your ground man!Hahaha. Too late.

Hostilesouthern
10-12-2006, 10:25 PM
Excellent letter, Lindsay.

This is a growing problem for the conservative community. For the most part, the Christian bloc has been closely alligned with the goals of economic conservatives, but recently have begun to take stances that attempt to legislate their moral views upon the rest of society.

The whole debate about gay marriage was (and still is) a classic example.

From an economic standpoint, allowing gay marriage is an excellent idea - reducing promiscuity (and thus medical costs) and promoting economic unions that increase equity and economic standing is a good idea for any segment of society.

Christian conservatives (mostly) opposed it on strictly religious grounds.

Would it harm anyone? No. As said above, these are the people "who want to impose their version of "righteousness" on others through the hammer of law."

...and this is the road that leads to theocracy.

Our thinking is lined up perfectly on gay marriage.

I have never had any issues in my own marriage due to two guys playing hide the snake in their homes. I truly believe God gave us free will to make these kinds of moral compass decisions without the influence of another persons sense of purpose. In the end I see it as a State's rights issue. The local community taking control is best when it comes to what a person wants to be a part of. Or move to an area that shares enough of that same commonalty. You know, willing communites.

If there is a price for a gay man to pay for fucking another gay man, that is God's job. not mine.

Tokyohoon
10-12-2006, 10:32 PM
I'm so tired of having their "liberals are evil" diatribe wiped in my face everytime I read something written by the conservative side.

But Liberals ARE evil. They poison wells, eat babies, 'cause momma's milk to curdle and the cow to dry up. They take the form of owls at night and fly the countryside looking for infants to slaughter in their cradles. They give the evil eye, cause virile men to lose their seed, and turn fertile women barren. They loose rats into the seed grain, mix salt with the fertilizer, and occasionally shit on the hood of your car.

Yes, Liberals are evil.

Rush said so.

:biggrin:

militarymite
10-13-2006, 12:04 AM
Liberal women give the best head though.

weknowhowtolive
10-13-2006, 12:09 AM
Liberal women give the best head though.Bull!

Cuchulainn
10-13-2006, 03:29 AM
Bull!
I like that you callled "Bull" on the blowjob line, but not on Tokyohoon. :biggrin:

weknowhowtolive
10-13-2006, 03:36 AM
I like that you callled "Bull" on the blowjob line, but not on Tokyohoon. :biggrin:Well its true...liberals do eat babies.

And everyone knows leftwing women dont give head because it is demeaning to the woman.

Hostilesouthern
10-13-2006, 09:17 AM
Liberal women give the best head though.


Not even close. A proper blow job requires a woman to either get on her knees or in some other subservient position and practice. often. I am comfortable in saying there I give the top of the line blow jobs to my husband. At least every other night.

Tokyohoon
10-13-2006, 09:51 AM
Not even close. A proper blow job requires a woman to either get on her knees or in some other subservient position and practice. often. I am comfortable in saying there I give the top of the line blow jobs to my husband. At least every other night.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hostilesouthern again.

Mrs. Hoon agrees, ALSO gives top of the line hummers, and would vote Conservative if Japan had a conservative party (so she just goes LDP).

I do seem to remember from my younger days that most lefty women are quite comfortable taking it up the pooper tho. Must be practicing for when their parties get into power.

militarymite
10-13-2006, 11:54 AM
Not even close. A proper blow job requires a woman to either get on her knees or in some other subservient position and practice. often. I am comfortable in saying there I give the top of the line blow jobs to my husband. At least every other night.
At least I got you to pornify and jizz up your own thread about evangelical christians. Ha, ha. Couple rep pts. for you.

Hostilesouthern
10-13-2006, 12:05 PM
At least I got you to pornify and jizz up your own thread about evangelical christians. Ha, ha.


Pffft, you do not pay attention well. I am into God and very conservative but I'm seriously, very dirty. Awesome thing about being married, I do not have to worry about my husband having an issue with the...err kink factor.

All he has to do is ask and "sure. I'll do that"

militarymite
10-13-2006, 12:31 PM
Pffft, you do not pay attention well. I am into God and very conservative but I'm seriously, very dirty. Awesome thing about being married, I do not have to worry about my husband having an issue with the...err kink factor.

All he has to do is ask and "sure. I'll do that"
Hey, I'm a believer....Praise Jesus!

Cuchulainn
10-17-2006, 09:52 PM
Not even close. A proper blow job requires a woman to either get on her knees or in some other subservient position and practice. often. I am comfortable in saying there I give the top of the line blow jobs to my husband. At least every other night.
I wish I could get my wife on your training regimen.

Hostilesouthern
10-18-2006, 11:54 AM
I wish I could get my wife on your training regimen.


What's that saying...

Whatever your bitch will not do, another bitch will.

Gut Check
10-18-2006, 06:41 PM
way off topic, but i really wish my name was dick armey. how fucking cool would that be?
Damn, which comedian made the joke about that, Vagina Coast Gaurd was the punchline, fuck what was the joke.:confused:

shawn P
10-18-2006, 06:43 PM
The "right" or "christian right" operates on a strict ideology, .
And please tell me the leftwing dosen't practice a strick ideology of political correctness. It's so easy too point fingers and not mention your ilk are just as guilty of the same bullshit.

militarymite
10-19-2006, 02:59 AM
And please tell me the leftwing dosen't practice a strick ideology of political correctness. It's so easy too point fingers and not mention your ilk are just as guilty of the same bullshit.
Hey, I just got an infraction a couple days ago for posting a racist comment, so don't accuse me of political correctness. I don't claim to be leftwing, my political views span the whole spectrum. Leftwing political correctness is just irritating, so I totally agree with your post for the most part. shawn P, I hope your wound is healing up and not too painful for you. The picture you posted of you gun shot wound in "just a scratch" was one of the last things I looked at on wsn before I left town for a few days. That image stuck with me the whole time I was gone. I kept thinking all kind of thoughts like what it felt like, trying to relate to what it would be like to get wounded like that. Admiring your courage and bravery. How does it make you feel about war once you get wounded. What it's like dealing with fear and anger when in the situation of war. I could go on and on, but man that really had an impact on me.

Tokyohoon
10-19-2006, 03:04 AM
Damn, which comedian made the joke about that, Vagina Coast Gaurd was the punchline, fuck what was the joke.:confused:

Family Guy quote:
Dick Armey: Hi, I'm Dick Armey.
Peter: Dick Armey? What's your wife's name? Vagina Coast Guard?

Acari Rotter
10-19-2006, 03:15 AM
Not even close. A proper blow job requires a woman to either get on her knees or in some other subservient position and practice. often. I am comfortable in saying there I give the top of the line blow jobs to my husband. At least every other night.

Usually when my wife plays the purple oboe I'm lying on my back. I thought women only went on their knees in porn movies.

shawn P
10-19-2006, 09:42 AM
Hey, I just got an infraction a couple days ago for posting a racist comment, so don't accuse me of political correctness. I don't claim to be leftwing, my political views span the whole spectrum. Leftwing political correctness is just irritating, so I totally agree with your post for the most part. shawn P, I hope your wound is healing up and not too painful for you. The picture you posted of you gun shot wound in "just a scratch" was one of the last things I looked at on wsn before I left town for a few days. That image stuck with me the whole time I was gone. I kept thinking all kind of thoughts like what it felt like, trying to relate to what it would be like to get wounded like that. Admiring your courage and bravery. How does it make you feel about war once you get wounded. What it's like dealing with fear and anger when in the situation of war. I could go on and on, but man that really had an impact on me.
I don't know about courage and bravery, I was at the wrong spot at the wrong time and got caught slipping. We had a damn good man get nailed by the the same sniper(atleast we think) a day ago, and he wasn't so lucky. I knew in the first place that this place wasn't worth dying for, So this all kinda serves as a reminder of how much I don't want to die in this shit hole. Sorry for pegging you as a lefty, it's pretty easy to slap a lable on someone when they post their views on this site.

Hostilesouthern
10-19-2006, 10:39 AM
Usually when my wife plays the purple oboe I'm lying on my back. I thought women only went on their knees in porn movies.


Your dick is purple? That's kinda gross.

weknowhowtolive
10-22-2006, 02:35 PM
Usually when my wife plays the purple oboe I'm lying on my back. I thought women only went on their knees in porn movies.Weak...straddle the bitches head and face fuck her.