FDNY forced to lower entrance standards for diversity

[Blue Blood]

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/441510p-371902c.html
What message is sent by lowering standards for job placement? Especially when it comes to civil service and saving lives.
Not a good one.

[Loathe]

Fuck that shit.

I've been a fire fighter before, and I', probably going to volunteer here at the new house. That shit is not fucking easy. That sucks because the NYFD has always been one of the best professional fire depts around, and it's goign to go down hill fast as shit.

[Blue Blood]

Good friend of mine,serving with the Marines in Iraq currently,is a lieutenant in the Fire dept.,his dad is Chief,and he had to work his ass off to get there,high test scores,studying for the lieu. exam,etc.Zero favors...
Work hard,earn your way.That way no one can question if you earned your position or not.

[Oz.]

Good friend of mine,serving with the Marines in Iraq currently,is a lieutenant in the Fire dept.,his dad is Chief,and he had to work his ass off to get there,high test scores,studying for the lieu. exam,etc.Zero favors...
Work hard,earn your way.That way no one can question if you earned your position or not.
Which is how it should work in any industry: You do a shit-hot job, you are accorded respect (regardless of race, religion, etc). You get a job by charity, you're a joke unless you prove yourself otherwise. Simple.

[SkinnyBird]

Chicago had to do the same thing...How it worked is that when you took the entrance test (basically just reading comprehension) you got a score of Well Qualified (89 to 100) Qualified (79? to 88) and Not Qualified. They only hired from the well qualified list. Then somebody said that that cutoff point wasn't fair to African Americans because apparently blacks don't read as well as whites. So JJ got behind it and there was a class-action lawsuit and now they have to run all these Black Qualifieds through the academy. Total Bullshit. I'd like to see all the women who Qualified sue because the paragraph they used for the test was about machinery because obviously women don't know as much about engines and motors and pumps and all that shit. This is why I hate humans.

[Ruby Doe]

Hmm... If given a choice between having someone with the highest possible test scores rescueing my ass from a burning building, and someone who is ont he force cause it's "Diversity, man!" I'd rather go with Captain Test Scores. People's lives are not something you should take a chance with, just to look good inthe eyes of a multicultural community.

Fuck that.

[Olde-E Fever]

Chicago had to do the same thing...How it worked is that when you took the entrance test (basically just reading comprehension) you got a score of Well Qualified (89 to 100) Qualified (79? to 88) and Not Qualified. They only hired from the well qualified list. Then somebody said that that cutoff point wasn't fair to African Americans because apparently blacks don't read as well as whites. So JJ got behind it and there was a class-action lawsuit and now they have to run all these Black Qualifieds through the academy. Total Bullshit. I'd like to see all the women who Qualified sue because the paragraph they used for the test was about machinery because obviously women don't know as much about engines and motors and pumps and all that shit. This is why I hate humans.


That shit is soo retarded. I really don't care what your ethnicity is but if you can't pass the entrance test you should NOT be allowed in. This is peoples lives, not just the people needing rescued but the firefighters themselves.

[Gun2Gun]

They do this for a lot of things now. Teachers, Police, Fire fighters, EMTs, ect ect...

[siobahn]

...That way no one can question if you earned your position or not.that's exactly it. if people who push such laws into effect really believe that women or 'minorities' have equal skills and abilities, why would they want these groups to be given a hand up instead of competing to fill the same criteria as everyone else (i.e. the white males)... it's almost as if they think that the people who they supposedly want to help are actually not capable. but it all comes back to guilt. there are people who have forgotten so much of their own origin that they try to create an identity by 'helping' others or creating a false sense of equality... and then there are those that don't give a shit but seek to profit off this pursuit. of course it's dramatic when people's lives are directly at stake, with firefighters or police (which are lowering their entrance requirements in many cities), but there are also lots of other jobs where performance affects safety issues in ways that are important, but not quite as dramatic as pulling someone out of a burning building.

but i don't think anyone here is going to argue for this nonsense anyway.

my question is this:
it seems that what motivates people to create affirmative action/equal opportunity legislation is a belief that some people just don't get a fair shot at the game from day one; that their schooling or living conditions are so disproportionately bad that they have to be given special privileges to make up for it. so people might say, fix the problem from the beginning, fund schools properly so this sort of collective apology is not necessary, but the fact is that to compete fairly, inner city schools would need more funding than others (for a variety of reasons, security for example). an equal chance at the game still means that some people (disproportionately) are left behind. so what is the solution? a lot of people who say that laws like the one mentioned at the beginning of the thread are moronic because things should be fair, are also quick to say that racism is bullshit... but what if giving someone a fair chance necessarily entails singling them out on the basis of race?

in other words, if race doesn't matter, why shouldn't equality be the end goal? why not institute things that allow every tom, dick or rashid to get ahead? in effect, this would only speed up the process of eliminating racism... that is, if you believe that it is a bad thing. :)

(hope it makes sense.. and i'm not getting at anything in particular here, just trying to encourage discussion/critical thinking.)

[tousunis]

Chicago had to do the same thing...How it worked is that when you took the entrance test (basically just reading comprehension) you got a score of Well Qualified (89 to 100) Qualified (79? to 88) and Not Qualified. They only hired from the well qualified list. Then somebody said that that cutoff point wasn't fair to African Americans because apparently blacks don't read as well as whites. So JJ got behind it and there was a class-action lawsuit and now they have to run all these Black Qualifieds through the academy. Total Bullshit. I'd like to see all the women who Qualified sue because the paragraph they used for the test was about machinery because obviously women don't know as much about engines and motors and pumps and all that shit. This is why I hate humans.

It's funny how when a white person degrades an entire race of black people with a stereotype they hate it, but they go and do something like this. "Blacks don't read as well as whites" my fucking ass.

My cousin spent about 4-5 years just to become a Fire Fighter here in Ontario...and worked his ass off in the process.

[Hedge]

Fuck that shit.

I've been a fire fighter before, and I', probably going to volunteer here at the new house. That shit is not fucking easy. That sucks because the NYFD has always been one of the best professional fire depts around, and it's goign to go down hill fast as shit.Just outta' curiosity, how old do you have to be to hold a firefighter position? Is there any way that a 16 year old female could be one?

[Loathe]

Just outta' curiosity, how old do you have to be to hold a firefighter position? Is there any way that a 16 year old female could be one?

On a volunteer force probably. I know that most forces around the country has some kind of junior firefighter program, usually kids in Jr. High and up that hang out around the house and do shit for the guys. In High School a lot of volunteer forces will let you sign up witrh waivers and parental permission.

Shit my little sister has been running a wagon since she was in high school.

[King of all Buffets]

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/441510p-371902c.html
What message is sent by lowering standards for job placement? Especially when it comes to civil service and saving lives.
Not a good one.

They will sure regret it when people start losing their lives because of underqualified fireman.....then they'll get the shitstorm they deserve.

[Hedge]

On a volunteer force probably. I know that most forces around the country has some kind of junior firefighter program, usually kids in Jr. High and up that hang out around the house and do shit for the guys. In High School a lot of volunteer forces will let you sign up witrh waivers and parental permission.

Shit my little sister has been running a wagon since she was in high school.Do they actually let them help in fighting fires at that age? Would it be possible to be in a situation where they could fall through a stairwell and get burned?

[Loathe]

Do they actually let them help in fighting fires at that age? Would it be possible to be in a situation where they could fall through a stairwell and get burned?

Doubtful.

Usually they keep the youngins on an ambulance until they prove themselves.

I mean, the liability alon of something like that would have most commanders shuddering :)

[Johnny Rebel]

Fuck that shit.

I've been a fire fighter before, and I', probably going to volunteer here at the new house. That shit is not fucking easy. That sucks because the NYFD has always been one of the best professional fire depts around, and it's goign to go down hill fast as shit.

Kinda started goin downhill when they started regularly testing for cocaine and marijuana after some FF got in an accident and they found a copious amount of the alkaloid in his system and person.

[Hedge]

Doubtful.

Usually they keep the youngins on an ambulance until they prove themselves.

I mean, the liability alon of something like that would have most commanders shuddering :)I figured as much, but had to check....Thanks!

[Vitnir]

Well, at least they still got SOME standards for jobs. Here is only counts whom you know, related to or fuck with. ...Or if you got 10 years experience in the field, in case which you just finished school or got released from millitary service, there's absolutely no way you'd get experience unless you work for free but last time I checked, air doesn't pay bills.

[weknowhowtolive]

Thats such a fucking load of shit. Im also addicted to that show Rescue Me...pretty awesome.

[siobahn]

It's funny how when a white person degrades an entire race of black people with a stereotype they hate it, but they go and do something like this. "Blacks don't read as well as whites" my fucking ass.well, they don't on average, but if everything was given to them, they would excel in life. (note the sarcasm)

[Age Of Quarrel]

You know what, fuck that bullshit. They have these standards for a reason. If you dont have the physical strength or the mental ability to pass it, you simply dont have what it takes. I would know, i worked my fucking ass off through both EMT and to pass my PAT to get into my academy. No bullshit special standards, just working my ass off. And its not like im the biggest, smartest, or strongest guy either. Fucking people with excuses, and playing the race card.

If they cut the standards too low, theyll get firefighters killed. Whatever.

(And i have nothing but the highest respect for FDNY, but theyre dropping the ball HUGE on this decision.)

[Screwloose]

Well, at least they aren't doing like some gov't bodies. If you can pass a laughable background check, interview decently, and tie your own shoe laces, they'll give you a job. Then they'll push you through a joke of an academy and pray you don't kill anyone.
Or there is the way the local PD handles it. Hire the fresh out of college know it all know-nothings. But the guy who has been working in the shit for years without a degree can't get hired. Then they wonder why these scared little drones get in over their heads too easily...

[WhiteTrashSkinhead]

Well, at least they aren't doing like some gov't bodies. If you can pass a laughable background check, interview decently, and tie your own shoe laces, they'll give you a job. Then they'll push you through a joke of an academy and pray you don't kill anyone.
Or there is the way the local PD handles it. Hire the fresh out of college know it all know-nothings. But the guy who has been working in the shit for years without a degree can't get hired. Then they wonder why these scared little drones get in over their heads too easily...

I hear ya alot on that. I hate how much little pieces of paper matter in this fuckin world. Book smarts dont mean shit compared to hands on experience. Ive had that bite me quite a bit and it aint very fair but im not here to bitch, just means i gotta work a little harder. As far as the lowering standards, its been said a dozen plus times here already, but we all know its complete BS. The only special treatment i saw fit was giving extra points on certain written exams for applicants with military background. Id feel a little more confident with that excemption than one based on race. Atleast i know the person went through a job that required the physical and mental strength it takes to do the job right and well.

[grouchybastid]

Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but according to the article it seems like all they're changing is the educational pre-reqs. 15 college credits down from 30, and a possible change in the number of points given to residents of the 5 boroughs. I don't think they're changing the physical requirements at all, which as far as I know are pretty fucking brutal.

Now, if the physical tests are being changed to make it easier, then I'd have a major problem with it.

[United&Strong]

Toe the line, or get out.

[Sidewinder]

Thats fucking bullshit! We as a nation must stop lowering the standards cause once we lowering the standards we become weak. What kind of example are we setting here? If you bitch enough, you get what you want even if you don't deserve it? I'm all for equal opportunity, but to give things away is a bad idea. You get a job if you deserve the job, not because of your race, sexual orientation or your religion.

[Loathe]

Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but according to the article it seems like all they're changing is the educational pre-reqs. 15 college credits down from 30, and a possible change in the number of points given to residents of the 5 boroughs. I don't think they're changing the physical requirements at all, which as far as I know are pretty fucking brutal.

Now, if the physical tests are being changed to make it easier, then I'd have a major problem with it.

The job isn't just about brute strength, anymore than being an infantryman is. The picture of the stupid strong man is wrong. You need to have mental dexterity to go with the physical, or you make mistakes, you don't have a good grasp of the technological side of things.

[grouchybastid]

The job isn't just about brute strength, anymore than being an infantryman is. The picture of the stupid strong man is wrong. You need to have mental dexterity to go with the physical, or you make mistakes, you don't have a good grasp of the technological side of things.

I couldn't agree more...but on the other hand, if the standard they're lowering is the amount of time you've spent in college, does that mean they're getting dumber candidates? I know some crazy-smart motherfuckers that never took a college course in their lives...just as I know all too many university educated asshats that are dumber than bags of rocks.

From that article (and my read of it, which I admit could be wrong), they're not making the test easier, they're just making it easier to take the test. See what I mean?

[Bound Fo' Glory]

Chicago had to do the same thing...How it worked is that when you took the entrance test (basically just reading comprehension) you got a score of Well Qualified (89 to 100) Qualified (79? to 88) and Not Qualified. They only hired from the well qualified list. Then somebody said that that cutoff point wasn't fair to African Americans because apparently blacks don't read as well as whites. So JJ got behind it and there was a class-action lawsuit and now they have to run all these Black Qualifieds through the academy. Total Bullshit. I'd like to see all the women who Qualified sue because the paragraph they used for the test was about machinery because obviously women don't know as much about engines and motors and pumps and all that shit. This is why I hate humans.
Well maybe there would've been less grounds for a case if you didn't have video of chiefs and captains etc. drunk of their ass singing ditties about the firehouse dog chasing ******s and tapes of firefighters disscussing "fucking ******s" over CFD frequencies. CFD is a lot like CPD used to be....an Irish Catholic Boys Club. They would rather hire so and so from their parish than tyrone from Lawndale....it's how shit works in Chicago white or black. Cook County government is basically the Black version of the same thing. Why do you think the last two commishioners were Black? Dailey had to save his neighborhood buddies from the shit storm. CFD fucked themselves on that one.

[Martina]

From what I read, it only looks like academic standards have been lowered.
It's not much of a concern to me if the firefighter who is saving my life can read "War and Peace". It's when they lower the Physical requirements that it get's dangerous.
If you have to be able to carry a fat ass down a flight of stairs- then you NEED to be able to lift a fat ass down a flight of stairs.

[weknowhowtolive]

From what I read, it only looks like academic standards have been lowered.
It's not much of a concern to me if the firefighter who is saving my life can read "War and Peace". It's when they lower the Physical requirements that it get's dangerous.
If you have to be able to carry a fat ass down a flight of stairs- then you NEED to be able to lift a fat ass down a flight of stairs.

yeah but you also need to know that if you bust open some window you're not going to kill your whole team.

[Martina]

yeah but you also need to know that if you bust open some window you're not going to kill your whole team.

But that's part of the training- not a prequesit.
The flaw with this is that they just didn't lower the academic standards in general, it's that they lowered them for non-whites.

[weknowhowtolive]

But that's part of the training- not a prequesit.
The flaw with this is that they just didn't lower the academic standards in general, it's that they lowered them for non-whites.

Well there are all kinds of training and certifications you get for it. Its not all packed together. I took my classes at a junior college for all the knowledge based stuff. I never went to the academy so i dont know, but im guess a lot of that is left out there since you're supposed to know it when you get in.

[siobahn]

From what I read, it only looks like academic standards have been lowered.
It's not much of a concern to me if the firefighter who is saving my life can read "War and Peace". It's when they lower the Physical requirements that it get's dangerous.
If you have to be able to carry a fat ass down a flight of stairs- then you NEED to be able to lift a fat ass down a flight of stairs.true to an extent, but an education/intelligence means quicker thinking and decision making, and in some cases better instincts. right now i'm taking a couple of pretty crazy math courses, which i'm 100% sure i won't use anything from... but it's a matter of getting the mind to think a certain way, and thereby be able solve problems better.

[weknowhowtolive]

true to an extent, but an education/intelligence means quicker thinking and decision making, and in some cases better instincts. right now i'm taking a couple of pretty crazy math courses, which i'm 100% sure i won't use anything from... but it's a matter of getting the mind to think a certain way, and thereby be able solve problems better.

regardless, if you're having problems with learning shit, how are you going to quickly adapt when newer technology comes along? what happens when you get new gear and have to learn about it quickly? I wouldnt want some guy with "lowered standards" watching my back in a smoke and fire filled room, i dont care if he can lift 500lbs, id take a guy who can lift 200 and knows what to do.

[Age Of Quarrel]

regardless, if you're having problems with learning shit, how are you going to quickly adapt when newer technology comes along? what happens when you get new gear and have to learn about it quickly? I wouldnt want some guy with "lowered standards" watching my back in a smoke and fire filled room, i dont care if he can lift 500lbs, id take a guy who can lift 200 and knows what to do.

Bingo, those standards are there for a reason and if they lower them they expose the risk of putting mens lives on the line because someone "forgot" or didnt have the brains to learn a new piece of machinery.

[weknowhowtolive]

Bingo, those standards are there for a reason and if they lower them they expose the risk of putting mens lives on the line because someone "forgot" or didnt have the brains to learn a new piece of machinery.

Yep. Id request a transfer if my house got a newbie who got in cuz he was black and not because he was the best man for the job. And it would be the same thing if a woman came in who didnt meet the physical requirements but they lowered those standards to reach a female quota.

[SkinnyBird]

Well maybe there would've been less grounds for a case if you didn't have video of chiefs and captains etc. drunk of their ass singing ditties about the firehouse dog chasing ******s and tapes of firefighters disscussing "fucking ******s" over CFD frequencies. CFD is a lot like CPD used to be....an Irish Catholic Boys Club. They would rather hire so and so from their parish than tyrone from Lawndale....it's how shit works in Chicago white or black. Cook County government is basically the Black version of the same thing. Why do you think the last two commishioners were Black? Dailey had to save his neighborhood buddies from the shit storm. CFD fucked themselves on that one.
C'mon now, why'd ya have to bring up Engine 100? They replaced the officers there with minorities but we all know it didn't change a thing. It's still, as you said, an Irish-Catholic Old Boys Club. It's wrong, it's stupid, but until The Mayor is behind bars nothing is goinig to change. You should meet the people who work in CFD's "Diversity Office". The reason Daley put Trotter in charge of CFD is so that people would stop bitching about Phil Klien being chosen for Police Superintendant. And don't even get me started on that whole Stroger mess...
From what I read, it only looks like academic standards have been lowered.
It's not much of a concern to me if the firefighter who is saving my life can read "War and Peace". It's when they lower the Physical requirements that it get's dangerous.
If you have to be able to carry a fat ass down a flight of stairs- then you NEED to be able to lift a fat ass down a flight of stairs.
It should be. A big dumbass at a fire scene will kill you a lot more ways than somebody who's smaller and smarter. Firefighting isn't just "Put the water on the fire". There are so many incredible things that can and do happen, and you have to be able to anticipate and handle those situations. Besides, nowadays most Fire Departments run more medical calls than fires. I'm sure you'd be concerned if the Firefighter assigned to take care of you medically didn't pass their licensing exam.

[weknowhowtolive]

Just wait till you're on the top floor of a building and someone busts a window out below you to "get some smoke out." Then you can talk about some minority crap. Fucking academic standards lowered..

[Age Of Quarrel]

It should be. A big dumbass at a fire scene will kill you a lot more ways than somebody who's smaller and smarter. Firefighting isn't just "Put the water on the fire". There are so many incredible things that can and do happen, and you have to be able to anticipate and handle those situations. Besides, nowadays most Fire Departments run more medical calls than fires. I'm sure you'd be concerned if the Firefighter assigned to take care of you medically didn't pass their licensing exam.

Exactly. Down here you have to at least an EMT-B certification (which i just got, thank god) in order to get hired. You run 80% medical calls these days which include car accidents and various extrications.

Either way, you cant be dumb and be a firefighter. Lowering the academic requirements is retarded and dangerous.

[LeftWingScum]

fuck that! a choice between lowering of standards for the sake of hippy "equality" or knowing the fireman coming to save me can do the job...oh wait, 20 people already said the same exact thing.

if nothing else, we sure know the defenition of "repetitive" and "waste bandwidth".

[SkinnyBird]

Exactly. Down here you have to at least an EMT-B certification (which i just got, thank god) in order to get hired. You run 80% medical calls these days which include car accidents and various extrications.

Either way, you cant be dumb and be a firefighter. Lowering the academic requirements is retarded and dangerous.

State or National Exam?

[Loathe]

fuck that! a choice between lowering of standards for the sake of hippy "equality" or knowing the fireman coming to save me can do the job...oh wait, 20 people already said the same exact thing.

if nothing else, we sure know the defenition of "repetitive" and "waste bandwidth".

Holy shit Craig, you feeling ok?

Figured you would disagree just to disagree :)

[Age Of Quarrel]

State or National Exam?

National.

[SkinnyBird]

National.
Good job. If you can't pass the National you shouldn't be an EMT.

[Age Of Quarrel]

Good job. If you can't pass the National you shouldn't be an EMT.

Thaaaaaaaaanks, and after passing it i agree. haha

[LeftWingScum]

Holy shit Craig, you feeling ok?

Figured you would disagree just to disagree :)

nah, i love these threads where you know 500 people are all going to say the same thing before you even read any of them. i go to read a thread about illegal immigration, expecting to see overwhelming support for them, and i get surprised yet again!

[Scotskin]

Yep. Id request a transfer if my house got a newbie who got in cuz he was black and not because he was the best man for the job. And it would be the same thing if a woman came in who didnt meet the physical requirements but they lowered those standards to reach a female quota.


Not to be a tool or any such...but uh does anyone remember they talked about this in AHX? And if you watch Rescue Me, the female fire fighter who couldn't cut it physically. I mean...if I were in a life and death job like this I would want the BEST guy beside me, someone who qualified on his own, not got in because he was black/hispanic/whatever/female...I thought the principles this country was founded on was 'Best man for the job.'

[SkinnyBird]

Not to be a tool or any such...but uh does anyone remember they talked about this in AHX? And if you watch Rescue Me, the female fire fighter who couldn't cut it physically. I mean...if I were in a life and death job like this I would want the BEST guy beside me, someone who qualified on his own, not got in because he was black/hispanic/whatever/female...I thought the principles this country was founded on was 'Best man for the job.'

what about the obese, lazy, unfit men who have at least one representatiive in every firehouse? And Rescue Me is a fictional TV show. By the time a firefighter has made it onto the street he or she has already had to prove themself a hundred times over in the academy.

[Scotskin]

Like I said...best man for the job. If old and fat cannot cut it, then out he goes. I don't want anyone who can't reach the highest expectations working in that job. I don't want any less-than-highly qualified firefighters reguardless of race of gender or whatever...if they can't pass the OROGINAL 30-credit standards and the physical tests, then they do not fucking belong there. This is my point. Thanks for helping me illustrate it.

[SkinnyBird]

Let me help you out a little more...

In order for most women to even attempt to pass a FD physical test, they have to work out daily. I can honestly say that I would have to go to the gym every day for two years in order to build enough mass to not get pulled off my feet by a 14' ladder. Some of the males who apply already have a fair amount of mass, be it muscle or fat, and don't have to work out as much if at all. So, most of the women who apply for FD jobs are actually in better shape than some of the males who apply. Go figure.

[Scotskin]

Outstanding. As long as they can pull my 200lb ass out of a burning hotel, I'm happy. But if they can't pass one single part of the tests required or meet the pre=requisites...wtf are they wasting tax payer money and time for? Citadel anyone?

[Bound Fo' Glory]

Not to be a tool or any such...but uh does anyone remember they talked about this in AHX?
Of course. That's where I get all my information on the hiring practices of Fire departments.

[Scotskin]

Of course. That's where I get all my information on the hiring practices of Fire departments.

Ok, I deserved that.

[LeftWingScum]

if I were in a life and death job like this I would want the BEST guy beside me, someone who qualified on his own, not got in because he was black/hispanic/whatever/female...

yeah not to be repetitive myself, but i'm glad someone pointed this viewpoint out because the prevailing, overwhelming mindset is that safety has to take a backseat in favor of racial quotas, gender quotas etc...it's good to see dissenting views once in awhile.