IDF gives D&D players low security clearance

[beer and loathing]

I'm just wondering how much validity this has and is this something that is strictly enforced?



Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons

IDF says players are detached from reality and automatically given a low security clearance
By Hanan Greenberg

Does the Israel Defense Forces believe incoming recruits and soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons are unfit for elite units? Ynet has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.

“They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence,” the army says.

Fans of the popular roleplaying game had spoken of rumors of this strange policy by the IDF, but now the army has confirmed that it has a negative image of teens who play the game and labels them as problematic in regard to their draft status.

So if you like fantasy games, go see the military psychologist.

Dungeons and Dragons (also known as D&D) has been a popular roleplaying game for decades and is based on a fantasy world.

One player assumes the role of “Dungeon Master,” which entails directing the game and controlling the labyrinth, while the others select from a large selection of characters that includes warriors, magicians, dwarfs and thieves.

The game focuses on the results of decisions made by the players as determined by the roll of the dice.

In a more "active" version of the game, players leave the table and go out, dressed as the characters they assume for the game, along with the requisite equipment of swords (not real) to play outside, usually in the forest or woods. Most D&D players do not don costumes, and participants in such costume games are called "LARPers" (for live-action role playing).

'Simply detached from reality'

Thousands of youth and teens in Israel play D&D, fighting dragons and demons using their rich imaginations. The game has also increased in popularity due to the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy.

However the IDF does not approve of this unusual hobby and prevents D&D players from being considered for sensitive army positions by labeling them with low security clearance.

"We have discovered that some of them are simply detached from reality," a security source told Ynet.

Game enthusiasts are aware of their problematic image in the army and prefer to maintain their anonymity. Many of them are from the former Soviet Union, where the game is very popular.

In Israel there are thousands of players, between the ages 16 to 35, and include lawyers, high-tech workers and businessmen. Matan, 22, and Igor, a 21-year-old IDF soldier, organize activities for groups of players. Soon hundreds of fans are expected to meet in a forest in the southern part of Israel for a two-day game of pure fantasy.

"It's not a game of winners and losers," Matan says, "but rather entry into another world with stories and plot changes."

He is aware of the game's problematic reputation, especially in the IDF. The army is not indifferent to the unique hobby and is trying to locate soldiers who in their free time dress up as witches and play in forests.

'The game indicates a weak personality'

A security official tells Ynet there are specific criteria for deciding the level of a soldier's security clearance.

"One of the tests we do, either by asking soldiers directly or through information provided us, is to ask whether they take part in the game," he says. "If a soldier answers in the affirmative, he is sent to a professional for an evaluation, usually a psychologist."

More than half of the soldiers sent for evaluation receive low security clearances, thus preventing them from serving in sensitive IDF positions, he says.

Igor says exposing soldiers who play the game could result in the soldiers being sent to a military psychologist or even being kicked out of the army.
"Exposing them could also harm their chances at being accepted to other military courses," he says.

Matan says he has personally met soldiers whose military career was harmed due to their connection to the game. Most soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons simply do not admit to it while they are in the army, he says.

Why does IDF believe game is dangerous?

"These people have a tendency to be influenced by external factors which could cloud their judgment, a military official says. "They may be detached from reality or have a weak personality - elements which lower a person's security clearance, allowing them to serve in the army, but not in sensitive positions."

Unsurprisingly, Igor, Matan and thier friends do not approve of this IDF policy. They say the game is only a colorful, non-violent hobby.

"Many people who play served in the most classified units," David says. "They are intelligent and any attempt to label them as 'weird' is incorrect and unfair."

But in the struggle between the gameplayers and the Defense Minister, the latter wins - or at least this is the case in the real world of the IDF.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html

[Argyleskin]

Oh holy crap. Just when I thought there couldn't be anymore shit about D&D this gem is brought to my attention. IF in fact it's real. IF it's true and these men are given low clearence because of a game. That is bullshit. 100% bullshit.

They say they are more detatched from reality? I say they have a better grasp then most. That game when your young teaches you weird shit you might not otherwise learn. You learn silly shit too. Before gaming I didn't kow about taking point, flanking, keeping an eye out for certain situations. Hell because of the thieves in D&D it made me damn more aware of people on the street and picking up the shit that they do. Maybe I'm an uber geek but it did teach me a couple things that most "girls" don't learn.

I think those people would fail clearence with or without the game. They obviously have issues that the game just emphasises. It's just another case of them trying to find another reason to keep some good people down while sterotyping them with fruit loops. Where I used to work on the website for gaming we had old, young, rich, poor, smart and dumb as fuck. We had people who we had to remove from the game because they thought they WERE they're characters. And others just came to unwind after a long day of work. Personally I'd take a gamer over a couch potato any day. Why? Because a gamer wants to use their mind, learn and create. A couch potato simply wants to breath without giving thought to anything.

Next they will say people who drink Red Bull should be given lower clearence because they need extra kick, have an addictive personality and would spaz out at a moments notice.

[Packratt]

That's pretty funny really.

I remember way back when before the internet that some places wouldn't hire you and in the military they would give you lower clearances if they found out you ran a BBS. (for those too young to remember, a BBS was sort of like a mini dial up version of the internet made by hobbyists).

Just another example of people being mentally lazy and using stereotype to judge people instead of doing the judging themselves.

[steelcityskin]

"These people have a tendency to be influenced by external factors which could cloud their judgment, a military official says. "They may be detached from reality or have a weak personality - elements which lower a person's security clearance, allowing them to serve in the army, but not in sensitive positions."wonder what the IDF thinks of reading news on the net or watching television from around the world...
i can't say i've ever played D&D but most dudes i've known that play are extremely smart and well adjusted, of course there is always the nerd recluses, but i don't think the game does that to them.
you'd think the IDF would realize the people who play are probably quicker in problem solving situations, now the running situations...:biggrin:

[beer and loathing]

I actually read about this in March of 2005 and it's been on my mind ever since.

I personally think that some (not all) gamers are creative and possess an open-minded intelligence that most rational people do not possess.

Since Vitnir was/is in the Isreali Army, I thought she could shed some light on the veracity of this interesting commentary.

[Vitnir]

Hahaha, it is real. Hahahah, there was an article about if a while ago. They don't take D&D reinactors and FURRIES! Hell, there's enough freaks in the IDF as it is, they don't need more.

[beer and loathing]

Wait a second - the IDF puts FURRIES and D&D players in the same league????? WTF?

[Packratt]

Hahaha, it is real. Hahahah, there was an article about if a while ago. They don't take D&D reinactors and FURRIES! Hell, there's enough freaks in the IDF as it is, they don't need more.

Well, LARPers and Furries are an entirely different matter...

Seriously though, ever try to DM a game? You have to create entire scenarios that can run into other branches, you have to anticipate the possible actions the players might choose to do and build those into the game in addition to the creation of plot lines and tracking multiple points of activity at once.

Those are all abilities that the military should want for leadership and intelligence roles, anticipating enemy movements, running simulations, determining possible outcomes, and tracking multiple points of activity to determine overall strategies being used.

Oh well, I guess the generalizations about military intelligence are mostly true.

[Vitnir]

I tried playing DND on a computer and this nerd tried to teach me. I was hyperractive and he wasn't very creative. I would give it a shot but there are people out there who take it too seriously. I didn't know we got LARPers and Furries till I read that article about a couple of years ago.

[Verv]

I generally side with the ruling on some levels... But I think that it should not be an automatic ban. Whenever you put in certain standards into a bureaucratic process you end up fucking people over.

I do know some people who do it that are normal, decent folks, but I will note: the majority of people who do it do have a certain detachment from reality.

In some senses it can be a harmless hobbie, and nothing worth remarking on, but I think that there are other, obvious cases.

By the way, I also hope that alcoholics, gamblers, and people who mismanage money are on that list.

I know folks with top secret clearances that are all of the above.

[thisistheuproar]

I always played D&D with my cousins when I was younger...

I remember riding in the car and reading one of the "fiend books", and my mom took it away so she could show it to my dad, and she pointed at a skull with ram's horns on it and whispered, "that's the devil". I was a little kid, and I overheard her say it, but I couldn't figure out why a picture of a skull was the devil.

The woman's crazy.

[Argyleskin]

I generally side with the ruling on some levels... But I think that it should not be an automatic ban. Whenever you put in certain standards into a bureaucratic process you end up fucking people over.

I do know some people who do it that are normal, decent folks, but I will note: the majority of people who do it do have a certain detachment from reality.

Who in the hell have YOU been hanging around? Even in I walked around in full platemail while grocery shopping that says NOTHING about my mental state of mind. Maybe I'm just fucking with folks who think gamers are assholes..maybe I LIKE wearing platemail in the local store. But honestly who do you know who rpg? I worked for a damn company who created Dungeons and Dragons, those men and women who wrote the books are some of the most sane AND the most intelligent people I've ever seen. So please, enlighten us on how the hell I am some whack job because I like writing rpg stories and a good game of D&D with friends?


By the way, I also hope that alcoholics, gamblers, and people who mismanage money are on that list.

Holy mary mother of fucking god. IF a guy sucks at paying his cell phone bill (probably because he still gets snail mail and pays his bills that way and is AWAY alot) doesn't mean he's some piece of shit who shouldn't hold the countries secrets. It's the same with fucking credit. People with bad credit wind up paying through the nose for services EVERYONE needs..like car insurance..everyone by law has to have it..but fuck up a couple payments or lose your job and your fucked up the ass sideways with a shovel. Your driving record means nothing. Some fucker who has killed people while drunk will pay less then you because he has "good" credit. So don't come in here all high and mighty claiming because people who "mismanage" (And that in itself is such a loosely based description open to any interpretation it's silly) money cannot do their job well is a load of Grade A Texas Raised Farmed cattle BULLSHIT.

[AttitudeSkin]

D&D players are detached from reality, hence get a low security clearance?

Somebody better lower Bush's security clearance, that man clearly has no attachment to reality....

[Packratt]

Some people believe anything they watch on tv...

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h146/packratt5/paulslist2.jpg

[Cuchulainn]

IF a guy sucks at paying his cell phone bill (probably because he still gets snail mail and pays his bills that way and is AWAY alot) doesn't mean he's some piece of shit who shouldn't hold the countries secrets. It's the same with fucking credit. People with bad credit wind up paying through the nose for services EVERYONE needs..like car insurance..everyone by law has to have it..but fuck up a couple payments or lose your job and your fucked up the ass sideways with a shovel.

Actually, the reason people with gambling and money management problems are not allowed good security clearances is that it makes them vulnerable to bribery. "Mr. Smith, we understand that you owe your bookie Rocko $75,000. We could make that $75K disappear, but first you will have to do something for us..."

[Packratt]

Actually, the reason people with gambling and money management problems are not allowed good security clearances is that it makes them vulnerable to bribery. "Mr. Smith, we understand that you owe your bookie Rocko $75,000. We could make that $75K disappear, but first you will have to do something for us..."

Huh? I thought you said you were trying to get in to reply to someone else, but here you are instead... Uh huh.

Anyways... I would think that the yuppie jonesin for a new beamer would be more susceptable to bribery than Joe Shmo just minding his own beeswax.

They don't call that shit white collar crime for nuthin.

[Cuchulainn]

Huh? I thought you said you were trying to get in to reply to someone else, but here you are instead... Uh huh.
I don't have the energy to read all eight pages of his thread right now. That's going to have to wait.

[Oz.]

I don't have the energy to read all eight pages of his thread right now. That's going to have to wait.
:confused:

[Argyleskin]

:confused:
I think he's talking about the "What color are your panties" thread or something. I dunno..I'm still perplexed how someone who missed a gas bill payment is going to sell secrets to the Russians.

"Why yes Vlad, it is a cold winter.."
"You will..?"
"I dunno, 150 dollars IS alot for a heating bill.."
"Yeah you know what let me sell you that Uranium, I mean I can't handle another 30 day notice.."

Bah.

[Verv]

Who in the hell have YOU been hanging around? Even in I walked around in full platemail while grocery shopping that says NOTHING about my mental state of mind. Maybe I'm just fucking with folks who think gamers are assholes..maybe I LIKE wearing platemail in the local store. But honestly who do you know who rpg? I worked for a damn company who created Dungeons and Dragons, those men and women who wrote the books are some of the most sane AND the most intelligent people I've ever seen. So please, enlighten us on how the hell I am some whack job because I like writing rpg stories and a good game of D&D with friends?

I am sure they are intelligent. I see I hit a personal nerve. To a degree I will take back my words:

There is a significant minority, I have no idea comprising what percentage or what amount of gamers, but this minority really exists and is appearant and often finds thesmelves representing gaming/RPGing, and by and large they are detached from reality.

I know a few soldiers who are the picture of unhealthy lifestyle and dedication to gaming.

I am sure there are exceptions, and that many do it very casually, but you would have to be blind to not acknowledge that there are some major issues for some of these people. I have seen one go AWOL, and one overturn a desk.

Holy mary mother of fucking god. IF a guy sucks at paying his cell phone bill (probably because he still gets snail mail and pays his bills that way and is AWAY alot) doesn't mean he's some piece of shit who shouldn't hold the countries secrets. It's the same with fucking credit. People with bad credit wind up paying through the nose for services EVERYONE needs..like car insurance..everyone by law has to have it..but fuck up a couple payments or lose your job and your fucked up the ass sideways with a shovel. Your driving record means nothing. Some fucker who has killed people while drunk will pay less then you because he has "good" credit. So don't come in here all high and mighty claiming because people who "mismanage" (And that in itself is such a loosely based description open to any interpretation it's silly) money cannot do their job well is a load of Grade A Texas Raised Farmed cattle BULLSHIT.

People who have bad credit and fuck up their payments have a good chance of being susceptible to bribe and monetary offers, as well as just are not as responsible.

I have never had a single, solitary problem managing money -- I am very young, and perhaps it will get plenty more confusing and difficult when I am older, but think of it this way: someone who chronically is irresponsible with money ought not have a clearance.

Usually the people who have clearances are on very set incomes where even their rent and food is taken care of them in specific payments, if you are unable to spend money responsibly and accumulate debt, it is a big indicator of general irresponsibility.

[LastRites]

Damn ZOG again.

hahaha...Im kidding, Im kidding...relax. :D

[Acari Rotter]

I think being able to detach from yourself and see things from other perspectives is a useful skill. Would the army have a similar ban on actors? They spend a lot of time pretending to be other people too.

[Vitnir]

I don't see how these guys could fit into the Intelligence forces:
http://www.nic.fi/%7Ehuba2/kuvat/larp.jpg

[Mike]

I don't see how these guys could fit into the Intelligence forces:
http://www.nic.fi/%7Ehuba2/kuvat/larp.jpg

WOW...Look at the fag in his butt huggers with the longsword. These fuckers should be shot just for dressing up and looking like total fucktards...The Farmer John galoshes really make the whole presentation come together.

[Bruiser]

"These people have a tendency to be influenced by external factors which could cloud their judgment, a military official says. "They may be detached from reality or have a weak personality - elements which lower a person's security clearance, allowing them to serve in the army, but not in sensitive positions."


I don't see what the big deal is, it's not as though they carry their dice pouches with them to make decisions. Gamers still function like everybody else, well maybe not LARPers... but that's rock, paper, scissor crap

[beer and loathing]

No, instead of D&D players, I'd much rather have these guys in the IDF.

http://www.satannet.com/lttd/files/359758-steh3.JPG

[SouthSide Eric]

Damn, I miss all those old protestant/christian tv specials about the evils of D&D(and Heavy Metal), back in the 80's!!!

Uh, I hope all you people understand, that I'm the only cool person that plays D&D!!:cool:

[Vitnir]

No, instead of D&D players, I'd much rather have these guys in the IDF.

http://www.satannet.com/lttd/files/359758-steh3.JPG
If it was your call - we would long be doomed now. But then again, I'm surprized they kept my two CO's and my previous NCO who had a record as long as the river Jordan. Hidden are the ways of the world...

[Acari Rotter]

I think this thread calls for some Jack Chick. Yeah, people who believe this shit are much more safe around firearms.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

[SouthSide Eric]

Thanks a lot. Now I want to go start a bonfire and burn all of my books!!!

[Cuchulainn]

Thanks a lot. Now I want to go start a bonfire and burn all of my books!!!
Make sure that you bring a lot of friends, march around and bang on drums while filming the whole event. Nazis always were famous for throwing the best book burnings...